Difference between Britain and Spain Noted in Paris

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Not the British way

The leading conservative French newspaper Le Figaro has noticed the sharp contrast between British courage and the cowardice of the Spanish who, after the Madrid bombings on March 11, 2004, painted their hands white and surrendered to al-Qaeda. Yesterday, the paper wrote in its editorial: “It is reassuring to see how the English respond with that typical flamboyance they display whenever history puts them to the test.” Contrasting this to the Spanish, who withdrew their troops from Iraq in the wake of the Madrid bombings, editor Pierre Rousselin writes: “This time the terrorists will not achieve the same result.”

Puzzled by the difference between Britain’s perseverance and Spain’s “appeasement” of terrorism Le Figaro yesterday also published an interview with the philosopher and author Pascal Bruckner, who comments admiringly on the British response: “Is this a result of England’s insularity? Does it derive from a tradition that expressed itself with remarkable grandeur in their opposition to nazism? Confronted by forces of apocalyptic destruction England refuses to give in today, as it refused to give in yesterday. Contrary to the Spanish after the Atocha bombings the English react with stoicism. They do not demand that their government pull out the British troops fighting side by side with the Americans in Iraq. Blair will never go along with the demands of bombers, unlike the Prime Minister that the Spanish elected after the March 11 tragedy. Together with his people [Blair] continues a tradition of liberty which I sometimes think continental Europe has lost interest in.”

Bruckner thinks this loss is the result of the continental West European tendency to “interiorise” guilt. “Certain intellectuals and opinion makers seem to think that every crime committed against us results from Western ‘domination’ of the world.” Referring to the leftist paper Le Parisien, which the day after the London bombings headed “Al-Qaeda punishes London,” Bruckner comments: “They make it seem as if Osama bin Laden is a schoolmaster caning misbehaved pupils who had the bad idea of joining the Americans. […] This attitude [of ‘interiorisation’] is extremely perverse: it actually boils down to shifting the guilt from the criminals to the victims.”

Crime and punishment

Bruckner comments: “They make it seem as if Osama bin Laden is a schoolmaster caning misbehaved pupils who had the bad idea of joining the Americans. […] This attitude [of ‘interiorisation’] is extremely perverse: it actually boils down to shifting the guilt from the criminals to the victims.”

Unfortunately there has been a lot of similar rubbish talked in the UK media over the last few days. We apparently brought it on ourselves because of the Iraq War. However very few of the commentators making such points actually are brave enough to say we should give up and bring the troops home immediately.

There has also been the usual talk about how the British don't appease terrorists, stand firm for freedom, blah blah blah. This conveniently ignores the fact that the IRA still exists, most of their bombers and murderers have been released under amnesty, their leaders are now insinuated into mainstream politics, and Sinn Fein grows stronger and stronger. Who says terrorism doesn't work?

And it may be best not to speculate on how the stoic people of London would react if the terrorists got really "lucky" with, say, a biological weapon.

Bob Doney

How did terrorism work for the IRA?

I really have a superficial knowledge of the situation but it seems to they didn't achieved the goal of a grand unified Ireland? Sure, they are now more focusing on a political platform and are gaining some respectability from that. But the UK being a democracy they could've done that from the beginning anyway. So I don't really see what they gained from terrorism.

Terrorism and the IRA

Hi, Bart

Of course we can't now compare what Sinn Fein and the IRA might have gained had they taken the peaceful democratic route of addressing their grievances, like, for example, the Scottish and Welsh Nationalists. Scotland now has a devolved Parliament and Wales has a devolved Assembly. Northern Ireland's "power sharing" Executive is of course suspended. The fact is that violence was the chosen method in Northern Ireland, and thousands of lives were lost and ruined.

I think what I was getting at is that it certainly looked as though the IRA bombed their way to the negotiating table, and there was never a clear message sent that the UK government would not in any circumstances deal with terrorists. If the Northern Ireland government is resurrected Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness will presumably hold office again. The intimidation and criminality continues there.

Bob Doney

Islamo-terrorism and the IRA

Terrorism is another form of warfare. It's the war of the power- and/or the stateless. Of course it's cruel, but so is traditional warfare. The dead are not deader after a terrorist blast than after a conventional cruise missile hit. One can argue that traditional warfare is fair, it's only directed towards regular fighters, and regulated and sanctioned by international law, - while terrorism is illegal, it's directed against innocent civilians, and it’s unfair. That distinction doesn't hold very well.

War is an act of violence, which denies any law or rule, which transcends the group or nation. The so-called international law is a set of multilateral agreements that breaks down when the agreeing parties decide to fight instead of talk. If international law should have a right in its own, as claimed by the internationalists, the US-UK invasion in Iraq is bluntly illegal.

The thin red line between "legitimate" force against standing armies, and "illegitimate" force against innocent civilians is a large gray area. Let's not mention the collateral civilian damage that regular armies do inflict all the time. The concept of "total war" has been consecrated in WWII, and since then been applied in many "legal" wars. Let's forget Dresden by the Allies in WWII. When the US in Vietnam couldn't find a suitable army, they defoliated the life hood infrastructure of the civilians and the civilians themselves by carpet bombardments. The Israeli army destroys civilians’ houses as a routine.

Finally in a war - conventional or unconventional - civilians are never innocent, certainly not in democracies. Bush forged an utter lie, the WMD's (a Tonkin-like legend), to drag his country and Blair into Iraq. Yet, Bush and Blair have been re-elected. Every civilian contributes to the economical fabric that sustains war. No civilian is innocent, ever.

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If we want to condemn any war (be it conventional or terrorist) as fair or unfair, we have to look at the motives of the war-farers, less at their methods, less at their morals. "Terrorism is utterly bad" and "conventional war is good" is only based on a judgment about methods.

What brings us to the IRA. Ireland has been for centuries plundered and culturally defoliated by the British, in a campaign short of genocide. Irish have been driven out of their lands, there has been a massive "plantation" (organized immigration) by Scottish, Welsh and English settlers who got free ethnically cleansed land in exchange. The Irish struggle has many characteristics of a classical anti-occupation movement. Ireland got its independence long ago, but there is still Northern Ireland where the imported plantated Anglophiles still hold on to their privileges, they refuse to re-unite, and do not fear terrorist and discriminatory methods either.

Of course one can argue about tactics, and whether Ireland could already have been reunited without terrorist methods. I rather doubt that. The situation also differs with the one in Wales and Scotland, where there was a democratic support for autonomy - while Northern Island still objects to reunification. The fact stays that IRA claims (as with the Basks in Spain) do have a broader historical and popular legitimacy than for instance the claims of the Madrid bombers or the London Underground blasters. They only represent some lunatic claims of Islamophiliacs in Europe, an area where they do not have any historical, religious or cultural roots at all.

If we rightly so feel mad and outraged about the London blasts, it shouldn't have to do with the tactics or the methods used. It should have to do with the historical context and with our perceived legitimacy of the claims of the perpetrators. Which is none. Europe has fought and resisted to Islam since the 8-th century. They are free to seek their happiness in their old (Middle East) and new (SE Asia, the 'Stans) territories. But Europe should keep its identity. If they disagree, they are free to leave. But leave morals out of the picture. The largest part of our brain is still primate, and primates defend their group, their territory and their way of life.

Freedom and happiness

Europe has fought and resisted to Islam since the 8-th century. They are free to seek their happiness in their old (Middle East) and new (SE Asia, the 'Stans) territories. But Europe should keep its identity. If they disagree, they are free to leave.

Hi, VH! So are we to leave Iran to become a nuclear power, and Saudi Arabia to become a theocracy, and Iraq to be delivered back to the Sunni/Baathists on the grounds that this isn't any of Europe's business?

 

Bob Doney

My issue was about morals

My issue was about morals and methods. Now we are entering the issue of goals, which is a more reasonable discussion.

 Concerning Korea, I would gladly see you get a glance at the map. The Korean peninsula is sandwiched between China and Japan. They won't be too happy having a bizirk nuclear power in short missile range. Let them solve the problem and assure them of our silence and support if they do so.

Iran is another pair of shoes. Saddam had WMD's and it was a hoax. Shouldn't we a bit shy now? L'histoire se r♪pète. On the other hand, Iran sits on top of a lot of oil, as does Iraq, Kuwait and the Saudis. Destabilize them all (worst case) and we would be in great trouble, economically. And so would they, as most of their wealth comes from oil. What's more, Europe wouldn't survive without the Middle Eastern oil, Norway and the UK can't supply enough. The US can, though barely. China can't at all. They don't have oil and their coal industry is ridden by inefficiency and accidents.

 When it's in the interest of major powers (including China) that the oil keeps flowing, nobody will object the US (and the EU, if it was only capable to do so) keeping a close eye on the politics in that region. We didn't hear too much disgruntlement from China about the Iraq invasion. Which was morally wrong, of course, but morals don't count when economic survival is at stake.

 My point was, don't let morals take the lead in the terrorism debate. Terrorism is as bad as conventional warfare. It's a method.

But again

I can't see how IRA proved that terrorism works as you asserted in your first message. From where I stand I only see an utterly defeated IRA that didn't make any progress while bombing and is still getting nowhere when trying to act respectably because of their bloody legacy. The fact that they are at the negotiating table is hardly a 'win'. Indeed it only shows that they LOST 30 years terrorizing innocents while they could have been part of that table peacefully from the beginning. Unless of course the UK government was unwilling to talk to them before they started their war.

IRA winning?

I can't see how IRA proved that terrorism works as you asserted in your first message. From where I stand I only see an utterly defeated IRA that didn't make any progress while bombing and is still getting nowhere when trying to act respectably because of their bloody legacy.

 

Bart, I'm surprised that you can't see what the IRA have gained from their terror. It was you who pointed out the economic drivers for much human behaviour. As Deep Throat said in another context, "Follow the Money!" Smuggling, petrol tax rackets, extortion, book deals... It goes on and on.

 

And what the IRA and Sinn Fein have gained politically is that successive British governments, by dealing with extremists, have denied the middle ground to people of reason.

 

Ask the leaders (and ex-leaders) of the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists how they think things have worked out since the Good Friday Agreement.

 

Bob Doney