Further Remarks on Eric Voegelin and Gnosticism
From the desk of Thomas F. Bertonneau on Thu, 2009-06-25 06:11
In my previous Brussels Journal essay on Jorge Luis Borges and Karen Blixen, I used the analysis of modernity undertaken by Eric Voegelin (1901-1986) as my critical framework. These current remarks constitute an extended footnote to the Borges-Blixen essay, in which I want to return to the text of Voegelin’s New Science of Politics (1952), particularly to its analysis of the Gnostic mentality, as that makes itself manifest on the contemporary political scene, and even more particularly to the book’s treatment of the Gnostic “second reality” or “dream world” in its remarkable Chapter 6, entitled “The End of Modernity.” I believe Voegelin to be central to any understanding of our condition.
I.
Voegelin’s use of the term Gnosticism generated controversy from the beginning because scholars could not immediately see any obvious connection between the modern world and a set of baroque theological positions associated, as was also Christianity, with the breakdown of Pagan religiosity in the period of Late Antiquity. Most especially the scholars could see no such immediate connection because Gnosticism seemed to them to have its peculiar context in a long-vanished historical society classifiable as a purely theological one, with God-emperors and so forth; whereas the modern West seemed to them to be a secular society par excellence that had come into being, starting in the Sixteenth Century, by systematically repudiating the dogmas of religious revelation. Antiquarians of religion like Franz Cumont (1868-1947) or Hans Jonas (1903-1993) might take a legitimate interest in Gnosticism, but what possible relevance could their erudite studies have for secular society, which, of course, “believes” in absolutely nothing, but rather places its confidence in natural science and technology?
Other writers than Voegelin had discerned in modernity, secularity, and even in science and technology themselves, qualities of a civic religion that substitutes for the discarded Biblical spirituality, but most of them, like Oswald Spengler (1880-1936) or Henri de Lubac (1896-1991) were eccentrics, or could be dismissed as such, whose analyses had no traction in the positivistic dispensation of the second half of the Twentieth Century.
Voegelin’s response to this pervasive skepticism – which sometimes sharpened itself into outright hostility – was patiently to describe the inner-structure or psycho-epistemology of the Gnostics, and to catalogue the varieties of their agitated behavior on the social scene. On such a basis he could demonstrate the psychic and behavioral identity of, say, the Second-Century Valentinians and Marcionites, and the Seventeenth-Century English Puritans. Voegelin also called on existing scholarship to demonstrate that actual continuity in concepts and practices that linked Late Antique Gnosis with medieval religious movements such as Paulicianism in Anatolia and the Balkans and Cathar Christianity in Southern France; and again the similar continuity that linked those irate doctrines with later ones right through to the Enlightenment and beyond.
An important part of Voegelin’s argument, which he took from writers like Cumont and Walter Bauer (1877-1960), was that the Gnostic attitude, like resentment, is always present in a society, and that the Gnostic religions were never anything like original but always took the form of parodies of the existing mainstream religion, whether it was Platonic Monotheism, Judaism, or Christianity. Gnosticism, for Voegelin, is essentially reactionary and parasitical: it is an intellectualizing form of resentment that obsessively opposes all norms.
By drawing on Hans Jonas, as I will do here, one can briefly sketch in the basic characteristics of ancient Gnosticism. The antique Gnosis represents, for Jonas, a thematic reversal of standing representations of existence. The pervasive civic theology of the Hellenized Roman Empire in late Antiquity centered on the idea of a cosmos, the visible universe in which humanity finds itself, understood as fundamentally good (the word kosmos implies beauty and harmoniousness) and as the deliberate creation of a good Demiurge or Creator-Deity. Qualities of the Creator-Deity, such as his logical mind and his approval of beauty, are reflected in the structures and laws that govern existence within the cosmos. The basic concepts of this view came from Plato’s dialogue Timaeus. Gnosticism, as Jonas shows in The Gnostic Religion (1958), systematically reverses the basic precepts of Greek cosmic monotheism.
When Plato and his followers say that the Creator-Deity is benign, then the Gnostics insist that he is evil, or even that he is not the real Creator, but a usurper who misappropriated creation and then criminally sabotaged or polluted it. When Plato and his followers say that one should love the Creator-Deity and attune himself carefully to the beauties of his creation, then the Gnostics insist that one should hate the Creator-Deity (who is anyway a usurper and a polluter) and revile the many debased phenomena of creation. When Plato and his followers say that it is good to have been born in a beautiful world, then the Gnostics insist that it is intolerable to have been born in a polluted world and that enlightened people will seek to be redeemed from the universal miasma or will dedicate themselves to detoxifying existence.
One can list several more features of ancient Gnosticism, again drawing on Jonas, that Voegelin “imports” into his own argument, although Voegelin’s main source in 1951 was Bauer (1934), not Jonas. When Plato and his followers argue for a universal humanity, then the Gnostics insist that humanity is not single, but dual; that there is a vast preterit of the unenlightened and unsalvageable who probably belong in the Hell where Fate has consigned them and that, set apart from those, there is an elect of the enlightened and salvageable, who, by spiritual exercises, can either escape from the Hellish world or transform it back into its pristine state before the usurper polluted it. In the second of those two possibilities emerges the theme of the Paradise-on-earth, as constructed by the vanguard. Finally, when Plato and his followers say that the world is at least contingently knowable, that it is, more or less, as our senses and our mental operations report it to be, then the Gnostics insist that phenomena are false, or worse yet deliberately falsified, and that the world is a lie concealing a hidden truth to which they alone have access.
It is important to remember that the Platonic cosmology largely passed into Orthodox Christian cosmology, so that where first the Gnostics were anti-Platonists, latterly they were anti-Christians. But no real change had occurred.
The actual Gnostics in Late Antiquity characteristically formed small in-groups of the disgruntled, who regarded themselves as pure and whose attitude towards the larger out-group was one of contempt and hostility. Augustine depicts the Manichaeans this way in his Confessions (397 or 398). As such in-groups proliferated, it fell out that the only people whom their members hated more than those in the larger out-group were the members of the other radical, self-isolating in-groups. Gustave Flaubert depicts this sectarian hostility in Anthony’s great sanguine vision of the religious riot in Alexandria in The Temptation of Saint Anthony (1848).
II.
Against this historical and scholarly background, it is possible to understand what Voegelin means when he asserts that Gnosticism is, at one level, in any given society where it appears, a contest by an agitating minority to monopolize the representation of “immanent reality.” With the goal of transforming existence and of realizing their own Paradise-on-earth, Gnostics begin a campaign to discredit the standing representation of reality, insisting on a reversal of terms, as Jonas has described. Of course, reality is that which exists, as and what it is, despite anyone’s dissatisfaction over it or contrary description of it. Thus the Gnostic propaganda campaign is foredoomed to being endlessly ratcheted up in its level of vituperation against actual existence.
With the proviso that Voegelin thinks that Gnosticism failed to triumph in Late Antiquity but indeed triumphed in its disastrous manner in modernity, here is one of the precise formulations of these views from The New Science of Politics: “The truth of Gnosticism is vitiated… by the fallacious immanentization of the Christian eschaton. This fallacy is not simply a theoretical mistake concerning the meaning of the eschaton, committed by this or that thinker, perhaps an affair of the schools. On the basis of this fallacy, Gnostic thinkers, leaders, and their followers interpret a concrete society and its order as an eschaton; and, insofar as they apply their fallacious construction to concrete social problems, they misrepresent the structure of immanent reality.”
But what is the true representation of “immanent reality”?
Voegelin locates that representation in many places – in philosophy and religion, for example. Thus Christian theology shares with Pagan Monotheism (Plato’s and Aristotle’s) the insistence, founded in experience, that nothing is perfectible in this world, and that disappointment, resentment, unjust shares, bad luck, arguments with one’s wife, pain, debt, and all the rest belong ineradicably to the mortal realm. The most that a just political order can do is to ameliorate the worst cases of these woes.
Plato said that perfection existed, or was – or, putting it in the eternal present tense, is – only in the transcendental realm of the Ideas, whose fullness, as the philosopher saw things, the world below only inadequately reflected. Christian theology says that perfection will exist only at the End of Days, when, after the Last Judgment, the righteous will enjoy their translation into Paradise; but by the time of Augustine, Christianity had more or less reconciled itself to the non-occurrence in the foreseeable future of the End of Days, the Greek term for which in Revelations is the eschaton. Christianity declares that good people must make the best of mortal existence because the eschaton is indefinitely postponed; people must adhere to morality, love one another, and act as stewards over the earth, while reconciling themselves to fallibility and imperfection.
When Voegelin writes that impatience to immanentize the eschaton constitutes the essence of Gnosticism, he refers to the petulant dogma that one need not wait, without schedule, to be translated into Paradise, but that one can, by his own self-salvaging activity, realize Paradise in this world. The skeptical claim that such a work is impossible is more of a focus for the Gnostic than the Gnostic’s own claim that such a work is actualizable because the first, the standing, the intuitive and plausible claim is what blocks and scandalizes the Gnostic’s own project. From this mis-priority of arguments stems the desperate nastiness of the Gnostic towards those who criticize or disagree with him. What does it mean, however, when Voegelin asserts that, “on the basis of this fallacy, Gnostic thinkers, leaders, and their followers interpret a concrete society and its order as an eschaton; and, insofar as they apply their fallacious construction to concrete social problems, they misrepresent the structure of immanent reality”?
More precisely, what does it mean to “interpret a concrete society and its order as an eschaton”?
Understanding the kernel of this sentence hinges on remembering that Voegelin now addresses, not ancient Gnosticism, which lost its contest with normative religion, and with common sense – with what Voegelin calls “the truth of the soul” – but rather modern Gnosticism, the triumphant “civic theology” of Post-Enlightenment history. Voegelin, following Plato and Augustine, notes that existence is open and uncertain, not closed and pre-decided. Men write history, the account of the past and its relation to the present, but there is no agency called History that, like a human actor, can do things; the stream of time is a great flux, buffeted by contingency, in which, precisely, nothing is permanent, but rather everything must, in due course, wither and perish.
In one sense, this truth can lead to pessimism: everything comes from dust and goes back to dust. In a better sense, the mortality of human works guarantees the openness of the future, which, unknowable, cannot be predetermined. Classical philosophy well understood this state of affairs, as did also theology, going back to Hesiod, Job, and Ecclesiastes.
Thus the condition of any given polity or society at any given moment is not a transcendental fact or Idea; but rather it is merely a passing state, bound to be altered by unpredictable and emergent factors. It would be a fallacy, therefore, for anyone to assert that the existing social conditions constitute a cosmic fact, part of the structure of existence in a metaphysical, unchangeable sense. For an example of this type of error, one might remember the pervasive fallacy in place before 1991, which held that the Soviet Union was an indissoluble element in the structure of reality, and that, declarations of its imminent demise like President Ronald Reagan’s or Pope John-Paul’s sprang from a delusion. This conviction held both inside and outside the Soviet Union, in different ways but with almost equal strength; it influenced even those people who deeply feared and loathed the Communist empire, but who inclined despondently to agree with the proposition. The claim, as history now shows, was utterly false.
III.
Gnostics and revolutionaries, unlike the spurious agency called History, can do things: make a Puritan revolution, depose a king, commit regicide, order banks to make loans, fire legally appointed CEO’s, give away welfare-largesse, mobilize national industry to invent an atom bomb, establish Gulags, send astronauts to the moon, or bloodily put down the peasant-farmers in the Vendee or the Ukraine. Militant secularists, beginning in the Renaissance, marshaled the forces to bring about the modern, materially based civilization, either in its mild form in what eventually became the Western industrialized democracies or in its radical form in the one National Socialist and plural Communist countries. When a militant phalanx, either an effective minority or an enthusiastic and even more effective majority, brings about some few items of its ambitious schedule to remake existence, it can commit that exact formal error, as Voegelin argues, of interpreting itself as a necessary and permanent fact of the universal order, as a realization of the “eschaton,” and therefore, but also erroneously, as an actual rearrangement of reality.
Thus, again, the fallacy that, “Gnostic thinkers, leaders, and their followers interpret a concrete society and its order,” the one in which they exert effectiveness, “as an eschaton.” When they do so, they argue from a temporary arrangement as though it were a fixed axiom, but because their basic premises contradict reality, they swiftly find themselves, as Voegelin says, “vitiated.” Their Paradise stubbornly refuses to fulfill itself in its universality and permanence: “The eschatological interpretation of history results in a false picture of reality; and errors with regard to the structure of reality have practical consequences when the false conception is made the basis of political action.”
For a ready illustration, see the current economic crisis in the United States, where the magical spending of money that does not exist, in an exasperating scandal for the policy-makers, stubbornly fails to result in the rescue of an economy whose collapse stems, in the first place, from pathological, non-reality-related super-spending of money that did not, even then, exist. Voegelin writes: “Gnosticism, thus, has produced something like the counterprinciples to the principles of existence; and, insofar as these principles determine an image of reality for the masses of the faithful, it has created a dream world that itself is a social force of the first importance in motivating attitudes and actions of Gnostic masses their representatives.”
Voegelin has now broached the all-important topic of the “dream world” in and of itself, taking us to the heart of the Gnostic “pneumopathology,” or sickness of the soul.
I offer a quotation at length, the necessity of which I hope my readers will perceive:
Gnosticism as a counterexistential dream world can perhaps be made intelligible as the extreme expression of an experience that is universally human, that is, of a horror of existence and a desire to escape from it. Specifically, the problem can be stated in the following terms: a society, when it exists, will interpret its order as part of the transcendent order of being. This self-interpretation of society as a mirror of cosmic order, however, is part of social reality itself. [But not of cosmic reality.] The ordered society, together with its self-understanding, remains a wave in the stream of being… an island in the sea of demonic disorder, precariously maintaining itself in existence. Only the order of an existing society is intelligible; its existence itself is unintelligible. The successful articulation of a society is a fact that has become possible under favorable circumstances; and this fact may be annulled by unfavorable circumstances… Especially when a society has a glorious history, its existence will be taken for granted as part of the order of things. It has [then] become impossible to imagine that the society could simply cease to exist.
This dense passage presents a few philosophical subtleties. The dominant one is Voegelin’s careful distinction between the one fact of “the order of an existing society” as being “intelligible” and the other fact of “the existence” of such a society as being “unintelligible.” One can gloss the distinction under an example. The Constitution of the United States articulates the order of the North American polity that it establishes; and the Constitution is explicable to educated people who speak English, think logically, and have some sense of history before the Constitutional Convention. However, as the current campaign to undo the Constitution makes clear, the “fact” of the Constitutional order is only a contingent one, a “wave in the stream of being.” All of this is “intelligible.” But that unaccountable factors and incalculable chances could so dispose themselves at a particular moment in the swirling temporal pattern of the late Eighteenth Century so as to give rise to the Constitutional order, is not “intelligible.”
Next in relevance and still quite important is Voegelin’s assertion that, when a society mistakes itself for a cosmic fact, “it has become impossible to imagine that the society could simply cease to exist.” To understand this proposition in its fullness, one must go back to the phenomenon, discussed earlier, of the Gnostic’s hatred of criticism. The Gnostic claims that he can build Paradise on earth and that, once built, this New Eden will last forever. Of course he cannot build Paradise and nothing that he can build will last forever, but because he lives in the “dream world” of magical, intention-related deeds, the Gnostic can never admit to ineffectiveness. He must suppress his own knowledge of his ineffectiveness and he must coerce potential critics not to remind him of it.
Of course, this last requirement means that the Gnostic must coerce potential critics not to remind him of reality. Gnosticism requires the mental obliteration of reality. “In every society,” Voegelin writes, “is present an inclination to extend the meaning of order to the fact of existence, but in predominantly Gnostic societies this extension is erected into a principle of self-interpretation.”
When the Gnostic project collides with reality and begins to falter, as it inevitably does, the Gnostic regime goes into panic-mode; it hardens into totalitarian rigidity exceeding even its “normal” Puritan intolerance. As Voegelin writes: “With radical immanentization the dream world has blended into the real world terminologically.” By manipulating language under various editorial codes and mandates, the Gnostic regime attempts to conceal failure under the language of success, inequality under the claim of equivalency, dispossession of personal or corporate wealth under the jargon of social justice, and so forth. “The obsession of replacing the world of reality with the transfigured dream world has become the obsession of the one world in which the dreamers adopt the vocabulary of reality, while changing its meaning, as if the dream were reality.”
IV.
The word Puritan has occurred several times in the discussion. Another controversial claim that Voegelin makes in The New Science of Politics (I am now leaving Chapter 6 for Chapter 5, “Gnostic Revolution”) is that the prototype of a Gnostic polity is offered by England under the Puritans. Voegelin had some precedent for the claim. Spengler had argued, in The Decline of the West, that English Puritanism bore almost no relation to Christianity, but represented something novel, a purely political religion, that merely borrowed its terms from the Gospel; Spengler also characterized the Puritan revolution as the rehearsal for the French Revolution. Much of what Spengler discusses in The Decline under the rubric of “Second Religiousness” is related to what Voegelin discusses under the rubric of Gnosticism.
Voegelin draws on the writings of Richard Hooker (1554-1600), an Anglican clergyman and theologian who, a liberal himself and “High Church,” married into a Puritanical family that inclined to radical Calvinism. Hooker used his in-law connections to observe and cogitate on the mentality and behavior of the Calvinist agitators who would soon create a political paroxysm, culminating in a regicide, in English society, before being deposed themselves in a restoration of monarchy.
Given that Puritanism, once having lost its power over the English polity, sought to create a New Eden in North America, and given again that the sitting American chief executive emerged into public life as a “community organizer” associated with the Afrocentric equivalent of a radically Puritan congregation, Voegelin’s appropriation of Hooker gains renewed contemporary interest.
A “community organizer” is someone with a cause and causes lie at the heart of Puritanism seen under the genre of Gnosticism. “In order to start a movement moving,” writes Voegelin, “there must in the first place be someone who has a ‘cause.’” The word cause appears in quotation marks in Voegelin’s sentence because he quotes it from Hooker. So too in what follows:
In order to advance his “cause,” the man who has it will, “in the hearing of the multitude,” indulge in severe criticism of social evils and in particular of the conduct of the upper classes. Frequent repetition of the performance will induce the opinion among the hearers that the speakers must be men of singular integrity, zeal, and holiness, for only men who are singularly good can be so deeply offended by evil. The next step will be the concentration of ill will on the established government. The task can be psychologically performed by attributing all fault and corruption, as it exists in the world because of human frailty, to the action or the inaction of the government.
It would require considerable obtuseness – a type of Gnostic blindness to reality – not to recognize in the foregoing description the precise pattern of agitation and propaganda that delivered the American presidency to its current holder and that continues in campaign mode to incite the masses against evil, in the form of various scapegoats for national difficulties that have resulted, not from any action by the scapegoats, but rather from policies previously urged on the nation by the people now holding uncontested power and using it to calumniate their opposition.
Voegelin makes an ominous comment: “Once a social environment of this type is organized, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to break it up by persuasion.” Faced with appeals to evidence or good logical refutation, Gnostics have recourse to their pamphlets and encyclopedias. Voegelin adduces the works of Karl Marx in their service to Communist regimes as, in context, “the Koran of the faithful, supplemented by the patristic literature of Leninism-Stalinism.” For the segment of the existing Gnostic regime that makes environmentalism its “cause,” Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth provides this “Koran.” In respect of dissent, the regime can respond by “putting a taboo on the instruments of critique,” so that “a person who uses the tabooed instruments will be socially boycotted and, if possible, exposed to political defamation.” Indeed: “Since Gnosticism lives by… theoretical fallacies… the taboo on theory in the classical sense is the ineluctable condition of its social expansion and survival.”
Again, it is difficult not to see the phenomena that Voegelin here describes as being hyperactive in our current affairs. It was not Voegelin’s design, however, to induce in those sympathetic to his argument a state of cosmic pessimism. Because Gnosticism is a pneumopathology at war with reality that does its best to seal itself inside the bubble of its “dream world,” it cannot, over any long term, succeed. For one thing, when “the critical exploration of cause and effect in history is prohibited… the rational co-ordination of means and ends in politics is impossible.” When emergent factors pierce the bubble, or at least impinge on the membrane, Gnostic leaders vaguely acknowledge them, but respond irrationally “by magic operations in the dream world, such as disapproval, moral condemnation, declaration of intention, resolutions, appeals to the opinion of mankind, branding of enemies as aggressors, outlawing of war, propaganda for world peace, world government,” and so on.
One can predict, generally, that the radical spasm through which Europe and North America are now passing will eventually remit. De-creation can only be called creation for so long before the fraud becomes undeniable and the masses become disenchanted with their formerly charismatic leaders.
The trouble for all of us is that, in the meantime, in “the weird, ghostly atmosphere of a lunatic asylum,” as Voegelin writes, the agitating elites can wreak enormous harm. In the USA, even if the electorate were to repudiate the Democrats at the next Congressional election and return the GOP to majority in one or both houses, terrific mayhem will already have been perpetrated. And it is fair to say that the GOP has disgraced itself in innumerable ways in the last decade, so much so that it would be foolish to pin any hopes on its reacquisition of the policy helm. At most a reassertion of the GOP would replace chaos with torpor. Torpor is perhaps preferable to chaos, but it is not the same as a healthy society.
Quite apart from election results, the extremism and intolerance of those currently in power polarizes the society increasingly, day by day, with no terminus of the process in sight; nor will their polarizing activities cease, should they lose their majority. Gnostic propaganda is nowadays organized as a colossal communications-network. Certainly American society is therefore in the rhetorical phase of a civil war, or perhaps in the policy phase, now that liberals have the votes to justify their schemes and do as they please. Even if the USA did not advance to some kind of actual civil war, the damage to civic institutions and to trust among people will have been, as it already is, profound and lasting.
One might agree with Voegelin, who was writing sixty years ago, that, “the end of the Gnostic dream is perhaps closer at hand than one ordinarily would assume.” But this need not mean that the aftermath will resemble the status quo ante, or be in any way familiar to those who, during the period of nightmare, held fast to the truth of the soul.
To return to Voegelin,
Submitted by patsanreal on Tue, 2009-11-03 07:33.
To return to Voegelin, societies seek to attune themselves to the divine based on the revelations to individuals who draw their fellows along with them. Take Dostoevsky, for example. His revelation is a guide to everyone who turns to him with questions. The Brothers K. is a Dantean journey through the spiritual worlds, though Crime and Punishment is the most focused on the individual calling to regeneration. used bikes
Plagiarized spam
Submitted by KO on Tue, 2009-11-03 12:16.
Patsanreal quotes an entry of mine from the same thread on 6/29/09. How flattering! Do I get a royalty for each used bike sold? Buy now!
Work around
Submitted by Capodistrias on Mon, 2009-06-29 16:52.
@Atlanticist
Maybe if they sang it in drag?
Should the disappearance of little Jackie Paper be a matter for concern?
Irony?
How about a PVdh clone being elected Pope?
And could a Peter clone claim to have a soul if the original Peter was insistent that the original Peter did not come with one?
Which Peter to believe?
How Ironic
Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-06-29 15:50.
@ Capo'
Peter, Paul, and Mary probably wouldn't get away with singing a song about Puff the Magic Dragon in contemporary Britain.
http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/english-slang/94170-puff-like-he-puff.html
First Things First
Submitted by Capodistrias on Mon, 2009-06-29 14:47.
@Atheling
PVdh's thinking is not so alien. Your quotes from Chesterton were spot on. And I had precisely the same thought as to his need to either reread Aristotle or acquaint himself with him.
While I see PVdh thinking as a perfect illustration of the Peter Principle in operation where incompetence attempts a farcical claim on Deity status, it might also be helpful to examine how Atlanticist's citing of the Peter, Paul and Mary Principle might amplify PVdh as an incarnation of the Peter Principle and connect PVdh's musings to what Thomas B. examines in his essays on Voegelin, especially the role of envy and the creation of a dream world to replace the real world in which PVdh has magically found himself.
So as we continue to marvel at the emergence of a new god out of the foamy waters of the TBJ, FIRST let's all get out our childhood 45s of Peter, Paul and Mary and let's sing along:
Puff the Magic Dragon lived by the sea......
@Capodistrias
Submitted by atheling on Mon, 2009-06-29 17:48.
With pvdh, where does one start? It's amazing - and how can one have a rational discussion with one who has such a tenuous grasp of reality?
In "Puff", little Jackie Paper eventually grows up and leaves the dragon...
I see no such event in little Peter's future.
@pvdh
Submitted by atheling on Mon, 2009-06-29 07:56.
I don't know what to say to you. Your thought processes are so alien to me that I just can't relate.
Oh well.
Abortion & Rape
Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2009-06-28 22:45.
http://www.boundless.org/regulars/kaufman/a0000848.html
PS: Sorry to be so long-winded here, but you get my point.
1st Principle vs the Peter Principle
Submitted by Capodistrias on Sat, 2009-06-27 06:23.
First Principles:
Life begins at conception. Thou Shall not Kill.
Peter's Principles:
"The debate seems wide open to me. The discussion when abortion should be possible seems a lot richer then the dogma -no abortion full stop- "
The debate seems wide open to Peter, i.e., first concede you are wrong about abortion then we can debate it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
With PVdh it ascends to a metaphysical level. Who made the Watchmaker? Why no one did, he came out of nothingness. And who revels in and proclaims his own nothingness? Ah, introducing new first principles.
(Apologies to Atlanticist if he has already cited the Peter Principle when debating PVdh.)
@Capodistrias
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Sun, 2009-06-28 22:21.
principle1: Life begins at conception.
I guess the "beginning of life" for you means that at the moment of conception a sudden link is created between a soul and the body. But how do you explain then cloning? Life creation without conception? And the split into a one-egg twin? Is there suddenly a creation of a second life, also without conception?
I guess the principle can do with some debate, don't you?
principle2: Thou Shall not Kill.
I'm sure you will be the first to amend this principle in the case of war, self-defense and capital punishment. So why not amend it again when the life of the mother is in danger, or the mother is pregnant from a rape-crime?
@Traveller: Pi in the Skye?
Submitted by Capodistrias on Fri, 2009-06-26 23:55.
Sorry Traveller but I had to beat Atlanticist to it.
time magazine
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Fri, 2009-06-26 16:10.
A week ago I've read a very interesting article in Time magazine, that is slightly correlated with the forgoing discussion. It is certainly putting the absoluteness of the "define order " into question. it would be interesting to discuss it here, at the risk of abusing Bertonneau's post. Something I apologize for in advance.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902851,00.html
For whatever it's worth...
Submitted by traveller on Fri, 2009-06-26 21:34.
I hesitated a long time to join the fray of this discussion.
For one the quality of writing of Mr. Bertonneau puts me to shame and for the other the quality of the people he writes about is magnificent.
But I have a problem with all this. The magnificence of the writing and the elaborated choice of exact words, existing and new, is like an art-form for its own sake.
In the whole text I can't find the root cause for the existence of the pro and the contra, or at least a discussion about it. I also lack a discussion about the basic reason(s) for the repeated collapses of the gnostic empires.
Of course it is possible that those discussions or themes appear somewhere else in the writings of those distinguished authors.
Because of those questions which came unbidden into my mind while reading the essays, I will be so bold to add my 5 cent to the discussion.
I see the Creation as a mathematical masterpiece using mathematical science which we won't achieve for the next couple of thousand years. Anybody with halve a brain has to admit that today we don't know f... all about the How, let alone the Why.
In the Flemish language section on this same TBJ, Mr. Frans Crols, a real journalist like they don't make them anymore, interviews a born catholic French world reknown physicist Mr.Bernard d'Espagnat who bluntly states that he doesn't think there is a Grand Watchmaker. Well Mr. d'Espagnat, with all due respect for your accomplishments, you are so very wrong, sorry.
I really have no clue who the Big Watchmaker is and what His grand schemes are. I don't know if He is alone or with other Watchmakers, but I know one thing, the way this Universe is constructed and functions and the way the human beings found a perfect environment for their very fragile life-forms, is about a zillion times more complicated and better programmed than anything we can imagine.
This brings me to the core of my problem with this essay. Since the Creation is so well programmed with all it's calculated probable mistakes, failures, natural disasters, but with a mathematical finely calculated victorious end result, otherwise it has no sense and we see daily that everything in this Universe has sense, it looks obvious to me that the fact of ignoring our genetically programmed spirituality and "Godfeeling" or otherwise put, our desire to know our Creator(s) will always lead to a negative outcome for the "sinners" or those who desire to replace their "Godfeeling" with another replacement whatever or whichever that may be.
I realize that I am, again, putting it very short and simple but that is my nature.
impressed
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Fri, 2009-06-26 22:51.
I must say traveller, I'm impressed with your comment. And although I profoundly disagree, it makes a zillion times more sense then a lot of the eloquent Bertonneau writings. At least your writing stays at this side of the world. Think of this Traveller: If there is a watchmaker, then who is the big mathematical mind that created the watchmaker? Why should the universe need a creator, and not the watchmaker himself?
Prime Mover
Submitted by atheling on Sat, 2009-06-27 19:08.
@pvdh:
Perhaps your puerile comments would be "richer" if you studied Aristotle.
@ pvdh
Submitted by traveller on Fri, 2009-06-26 23:02.
I don't even agree with myself most of the time, so don't make it more complicated.
Just to give you an idea of the complexity: If there is an eternal past , there is no present, because with an eternal past the present never arrives. So when did it start before you start argueing about Who.
Next: the Big Bang is a massive zillion times zillion tons of mass compressed to a needle point and exploding.
Good, but during the compressing the point of unstability was reached already before the mass was reduced to a needlepoint, how did it stay stable.
The point I want to make is: we don't know anything yet and try to explain everything, the more complicated and strange the more popular because nobody wants to admit he doesn't understand it.
@traveller
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Sun, 2009-06-28 14:57.
"If there is an eternal past , there is no present, because with an eternal past the present never arrives."
and
"during the compressing the point of instability was reached already before the mass was reduced to a needlepoint, how did it stay stable."
That's a classical misunderstanding about time and space. The big Bang wasn't a sort of creation of "mass". It created space and time also. There is no such thing as "before the big bang, so there hasn't been any "compressing neither" Space is finite, it was created with a big bang and it is continuing to expand ever since. I can recommend you Stephen w. hawking's "The theory of everything" A highly readable book, even for non-scientists. I thought most Christians have long give up trying to prove the existence of God. I think that’s a wise decision.
@ pvdh
Submitted by traveller on Sun, 2009-06-28 16:22.
This is the biggest load of crap which continuously pops up again.
Sorry but the Big Bang didn't create anything, the Big Bang, if it existed, was created.
It is a perfect example of explaining something by pontificating an impossible axioma. It is only put forward to do away with creation but has no real scientific value.
A friend of mine advised me to inform you that something cannot come out of nothing but I was convinced you wouldn't accept that. Now you repeated the eternal non-scientific stupidity that the Big Bang created space and time.
What the Big Bang possibly did do was change space and time in the dimension we know now, but the Big Bang was created.
I am continuously flabbergasted by the absolute conviction of today's "scientists" that they know already everything. It just needs some more study and proof, yeah, like a couple of thousand years.
@traveller
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Sun, 2009-06-28 21:48.
And I can assure you, that by carefully measuring the evolution of the Universe right now we can deduce a lot. Just like the "form" of the finite closed expanding space, the differences in “time” related with the velocity and the consequences for the Big-Bang. I guess here ends our discussion. Still, if you would consider putting your own premises into question, remember the book I recommended.
@traveler
Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2009-06-28 17:56.
A friend of mine advised me to inform you that something cannot come out of nothing but I was convinced you wouldn't accept that. Now you repeated the eternal non-scientific stupidity that the Big Bang created space and time.
Hehe, here's another quote from the "adorable" GK Chesterton:
It is absurd for the Evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into anything.
@atheling
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Sun, 2009-06-28 22:07.
GK Chesterton:
It is absurd for the Evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into anything.
The question is: what is the difference? An Uncreated God creating everything out of nothing, or everything created all by itself? From a pure "explanation point of view" both are equally useless. If you want absolute to put a God between them that's fine for me. As long as you don't create out of it an after-life and a bible writing God that created men according to his image.
But as you like to quote Chesterton, let me quote Richard Dawkins: I'm not that different from you. Of the milions of religions that exist and have existed on this planet, I only believe in one less then you.
@ pvdh re Voegelin and Gans
Submitted by KO on Sun, 2009-06-28 16:17.
pvdh: I think traveller's remarks below are perfectly within the spirit of Voegelin's philosophy, which is centered on a sense of the divine. Voegelin seems to view Plato and Christianity as coequal revelations, so there is apparently considerable room under his big tent for different personifications and formulations of the divine. The only piece missing from traveller's summary is his description of on how humans respond, or should respond, to their sense of the divine. For Voegelin, human societies seek to "attune" themselves to the divine.
You may have seen Mr. Bertonneau's references to Generative Anthropology. I would be interested if you found it interesting, with its minimal, "deferred" theory of the divine, as a meeting place of theist and atheist, or liberal and conservative. For me, it contributes to providing a foundation for orthodox religion and politics, but I believe it also provides a foundation for liberalism in religion and politics, so long as the force of the claims of culture and the divine is sufficiently understood. If you are interested, look at the anthropoetics website or the Chronicles of Love and Resentment by Eric Gans, on a linked site. Gans's book "Science and Faith' is specifically focused on the relation of the two and the "anthropological" truths of the Mosaic and Pauline reveleations.
@KO
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Sun, 2009-06-28 22:08.
I'm very sceptical. But I will look into it, I promise.
@ KO
Submitted by traveller on Sun, 2009-06-28 16:42.
How human beings respond or should respond is probably the biggest question in anybody's life.
I can only approach that from personal experience and behavior. I promise to come back to it as quick as I can.
@ traveller
Submitted by KO on Sun, 2009-06-28 18:48.
I look forward to hearing from you, at your convenience. I will only add that much effort is expended by our contemporaries in avoiding answering the question, by denying that the question exists, by denying the divine exists, by denying that the divine demands or implies any obligation on us to respond, or by recasting the divine in our own image so that it only asks us to do what we already wanted to do.
@ KO
Submitted by traveller on Sun, 2009-06-28 21:02.
I had an extremely full life with the normal ups and downs ezverybody has, except that mine were in tune with my lifestyle, extreme.
My studies were nuclear physics but my career was design engineering of steel structures.
At the age of 8 years old I knew the whole range of Olympian Gods, half Gods,heroes and t(he whole Iliyas and Odesseya, their internal relationships and their "activities". This kind of interest stayed with me my whole life. During my studies I became deadly sick and came out of it after 2 years. This shaped my vision on life for ever. Just to situate myself a little bit.
I became a risk taker from that moment on, took engineering jobs which everybody refused, became involved in an extreme love affair and went through all the thrills of life which everybody dreams about but very few people dare to live. I am not bragging, just stating facts.
Through all this there was a constant reckoning with my conscience as if it had a life and a voice of its own. My extreme life style confronted me continuously with my inner self. I came definitely to the conclusion that I was programmed genetically with a conscience which had its own values I couldn't do anything about.
Having been raised as a catholic in a catholic school I soon was in conflict with the priests because their theoretical dissertations didn't satisfy me at all and today you could describe me as a strong believer in a Creator who programmed the whole thing with his own kind of mathematics, far superior to ours, and I have no clue if He is occupied with me little person or if He has any designs with me/us or if He is only interested to see if He has a good end-result and if His calculations were right.
My attitude towards all this is that it would be extremely stupid on my side to ignore all this and to proceed as if I couldn't take the hints my conscience has given me continuously. Add to that my observations of the extraordinary things around us and I came to the conclusion that I had to take my own feelings and observations seriously.
I will continue tonight.
@ KO
Submitted by traveller on Mon, 2009-06-29 09:32.
Having lived on the sharp of the knife for so long I realized in 1985 that I had to stop drinking or I wouldn't be able to listen to my conscience and even to my body signals anymore. So I didn't touch alcohol anymore until today and I know I will not touch it anymore. Meanwhile I lived in Pakistan en 3 years in India and saw what extreme poverty did to people and to their "masters". I realized that we live in different worlds and different cultures. I enjoyed meeting some sufis and a fantastic hindoe judo master/cum herbal healer. Those people were drawn to me like flies and I couldn't understand why. They told me I was one of them, where I considered myself anything but spiritually inclined. Anyway we talked for hours and days and I became convinced of the deeper persona we all have but which we drown in our consumer society.
This put me in a dep quandary because I could keep on ignoring myself and my own inner feelings.
So I came home to Flanders and took a new family, I lost mine in 1980 by divorce, and tried to change my life. Meanwhile my whole past came back daily to confront me spiritually and put my weaknesses continually in front of my mind's eye.
On top of that I was sollicited continuously to use my experience to help others.
Result as per today: I know there is a Watchmaker and a Plan, I know I am tremendously small and weak and I am not in the least bothered by it. I will just try to live decently according to my own feelings with respect for the good people and with disgust for the idiots who think they are God.
I feel sad for the poor people who let their lives be lived by others and I hope my poor writings can help them positively.
I hope my ramblings make some sense to some people.
@ traveller
Submitted by KO on Mon, 2009-06-29 10:57.
That is a wonderful testimony and a more generous answer to a philosophical query than one could ever have expected. Readers should print it before it disappears below the bottom of their screens. The spiritual reality is common to all mankind, yet experienced uniquely by each individual, who comes to it through the doors of his own culture and upbringing.
If you are "called" to set forth your journey in life in written form for the benefit of a few of your fellow men and fellow Flemings, I am sure that you will pursue that task with the seriousness needed to get it done. To return to Voegelin, societies seek to attune themselves to the divine based on the revelations to individuals who draw their fellows along with them. Take Dostoevsky, for example. His revelation is a guide to everyone who turns to him with questions. The Brothers K. is a Dantean journey through the spiritual worlds, though Crime and Punishment is the most focused on the individual calling to regeneration. For Voegelin, Abraham is the original--"Israel and the Revelation" is a mighty work on the discovery of the transcendent, compared with the immanent, cosmological, deity. For pure pleasure, however, read "Plato and Aristotle."
I will echo A911's remark of a few months ago and express my hopeful anticipation of someday reading your extended memoir. Best wishes and best of luck in the task! God bless!
And thanks to Prof. Bertonneau for generously sharing his revelations and taking us along!
@ KO
Submitted by traveller on Sun, 2009-06-28 16:32.
I will look it up but I am extremely short of time. Thanks for the information.
I have the highest regard for the Greek thinkers because they achieved colossal advances in philosophy. Their way of thinking definitely helped and complemented Christianity.
'@ Peter
Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Fri, 2009-06-26 11:17.
FYI: I didn't express any view about Voegelin, favourable or otherwise, nor did I claim omniscient knowledge about the man and his work. But I DID express a view, however brief, of my admiration for the essayist, Mr Bertonneau, and his work, and for that I make NO apology either to you or anybody else. Got it?
End of History
Submitted by marcfrans on Fri, 2009-06-26 03:07.
@ pvdh
While I don't know what happened on this website years ago, it is doubtful that "The End of History" from Francis Fukuyama was "highly praised on this website", given that this is a conservative website. Fukuyama is no conservative, and his book did not stand the test of time for very long. It was written in the heady days after the collapse of the Soviet Union and of Bill Clinton's 'vacation from history', and it downplayed the lasting importance and relevance of differences in cultures and religions. Fukuyama's former teacher, Samuel Huntington, wrote his "Clash of Civilisations" in the same time period and, trust me, it will stand the test of time much much longer.
I am pretty sure that you being "a monster" would not be part of the "divine order". However, I cannot prove that, but it is a reasonable guess, and it does not exclude the possibility that you could actually become a "monster" (depending on how you will cope with what the future may hold in store for you).
Fukuyama
Submitted by Paul Belien on Fri, 2009-06-26 06:51.
was never "highly praised" here. This website wrote that his assumptions were "unconvincing."
PVdn and Nothingness
Submitted by Capodistrias on Fri, 2009-06-26 00:56.
"I take the world like it is, conscious of my nothingness in the fabulous history of the universe."
Something out of nothing? The rhetoric of self-depreciation, self-negation has a nasty habit of aiming to negate the listener and exhalt the orator.
Here we are invited to applaud, i.e. join PVdn in his consciousness of his nothingness and marvel at the world like it is, i.e. Revelations from Nothingness. Compelling logic it ain't.
I don't like Voegelin. He is
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Thu, 2009-06-25 22:42.
I don't like Voegelin. He is the kind of philosopher that needs a lot of Greek-isms to try to get his message across. By doing so he loses 99% of his potential audients and –more important- people who could criticise him. I’m always very suspicious about theories that need -difficult to define- and often -interpreted in many different ways- foreign terms. But of course, that’s not enough to dismiss his ideas. Luckily these days we’ve got google to try to find the true meaning of his words. That helps. I will not pretend I have understood everything. In that case I would have to restrict my comments to “ I want more essays like this one” and that would be a pity. First of all I will have to give him some credit. Voegelin described some aspects of totalitarian regimes as fascism and communism. And of course he is totally right when he says that those totalitarian regimes have structural similarities to religion. They had indeed the idea to create haven and total harmony on earth. “The end of history” (wasn’t that a book highly praised on this website?) He extended it to Modernist ideas but I didn’t had the strict idea he extended this idea to humanism as it emanated out of the French revolution. That is in my opinion something that has been added by Bertonneau. For most of us, humanists, the limited knowledge of the universe and the laws of evolution discovered by Darwin shows just the opposite: everything evolves and will keep evolving. Such things as heaven on earth or total harmony are for us in fact void of any meaning. Humanism is absolutely the opposite of everything religion represents.
We will eventually end in the discussion I had with marcfrans about the divine order we can’t know but we have to trust, and we have to act upon. I guess someone as voegelin couldn’t agree more. For me however it seems very difficult to trust something we don’t know; and even more to act upon it. Not in the least because it isn’t necessary. I, for example don’t believe in the divine order, yet I’m not a monster. I see myself as a rather compassionate person. And that’s because, in total agreement with Voegelin, I don’t want to play for God nor for his representative. I take the world like it is, conscious of my nothingness in the fabulous history of the universe.
Re: PVDH
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2009-06-26 03:26.
I, for example don’t believe in the divine order, yet I’m not a monster. I see myself as a rather compassionate person. And that’s because, in total agreement with Voegelin, I don’t want to play for God nor for his representative. I take the world like it is, conscious of my nothingness in the fabulous history of the universe.
"The sceptic ultimately undermines democracy (1) because he can see no significance in death and such things of a literal equality; (2) because he introduces different first principles, making debate impossible: and debate is the life of democracy; (3) because the fading of the images of sacred persons leaves a man too prone to be a respecter of earthly persons; (4) because there will be more, not less, respect for human rights if they can be treated as divine rights." - GK Chesterton
@atheling
Submitted by peter vanderheyden on Fri, 2009-06-26 14:38.
"The sceptic ultimately undermines democracy"
I presume that by “sceptic” you (and Chesterton) mean the atheist or the Gnostic.
(1) because he can see no significance in death and such things of a literal equality;
I sure can see the significance of death out of a mere biological point. I can, in contrast not see the meaning of pain and misery. But both of them have a “mystic” not-for-humans-understandable-reason in religion. What’s the difference?
(2) because he introduces different first principles, making debate impossible: and debate is the life of democracy;
Indeed we can introduce different first principles. And then discuss those first principles. The debate seems wide open to me. The discussion when abortion should be possible seems a lot richer then the dogma -no abortion full stop-
(3) because the fading of the images of sacred persons leaves a man too prone to be a respecter of earthly persons;
All depends on what is meant by “respecter of earthly persons” If pure respect is meant, then indeed I personally do respect a great number of persons because of their ideas. If idolatry is meant, I’m much more under the impression that strong images of sacred persons are much too often projected on earthly persons. I even happen to know somebody who adores GK Chesterton.
(4) because there will be more, not less, respect for human rights if they can be treated as divine rights."
Indeed skepticism allows putting “human rights” into question. And that is undoubtedly a risk. On the other hand, ancient rights like “the right to hold slaves” or “the right of supremacy of men on women” like described in the bible, have been questioned and found unethical due to the humanist right of “skepticism”. That surely is a plus.
@pvdh
Submitted by atheling on Sat, 2009-06-27 19:06.
1. What is your question? The "difference" between what?
2. The debate about abortion is "richer"? Yes, richer for abortion clinics, doctors and researchers. Let's discuss the Holocaust. According to your "principles", it's a lot "richer" to make it debatable than saying the murder of Jews, gays, handicapped, etc... is dogmatically wrong - full stop.
3. More nonsense and another cheap shot. You sure are full of them, aren't you?
4. Your ignorance of the Bible is showing. Come back after you've been able to get past tired cliches based on wilful misunderstanding.
"Next in relevance and still
Submitted by Edensfelt on Thu, 2009-06-25 15:19.
"Next in relevance and still quite important is Voegelin’s assertion that, when a society mistakes itself for a cosmic fact, “it has become impossible to imagine that the society could simply cease to exist.” To understand this proposition in its fullness, one must go back to the phenomenon, discussed earlier, of the Gnostic’s hatred of criticism. The Gnostic claims that he can build Paradise on earth and that, once built, this New Eden will last forever. Of course he cannot build Paradise and nothing that he can build will last forever, but because he lives in the “dream world” of magical, intention-related deeds, the Gnostic can never admit to ineffectiveness. He must suppress his own knowledge of his ineffectiveness and he must coerce potential critics not to remind him of it.
"Of course, this last requirement means that the Gnostic must coerce potential critics not to remind him of reality. Gnosticism requires the mental obliteration of reality. “In every society,” Voegelin writes, “is present an inclination to extend the meaning of order to the fact of existence, but in predominantly Gnostic societies this extension is erected into a principle of self-interpretation.”
"When the Gnostic project collides with reality and begins to falter, as it inevitably does, the Gnostic regime goes into panic-mode; it hardens into totalitarian rigidity exceeding even its “normal” Puritan intolerance. As Voegelin writes: “With radical immanentization the dream world has blended into the real world terminologically.” By manipulating language under various editorial codes and mandates, the Gnostic regime attempts to conceal failure under the language of success, inequality under the claim of equivalency, dispossession of personal or corporate wealth under the jargon of social justice, and so forth. “The obsession of replacing the world of reality with the transfigured dream world has become the obsession of the one world in which the dreamers adopt the vocabulary of reality, while changing its meaning, as if the dream were reality."
Indeed!
The above extract, in my view, being a highly pertinent interpretation of the mental illness called
Marxist Liberalism.
Yes, Classical Liberalism died the moment its faithful permitted themselves to be seduced by Marxist Utopia rhetoric.
Unfortunately, according to the author, there is no foreseeable remedy on the horizon, at least for the moment.
Wish List of One
Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Thu, 2009-06-25 11:04.
I want more essays like this one, please, and I would like them as quickly and as often as the BJ can publish them. Thank you.