@Doney

....

The war in Afghanistan, and more generally the 'long war' with radical islam, is still in its early days. And, if history is any guide, the 'new Taliban' will be back in power in Kabul before too long.  That is, assuming that the Pakistanis and the Indians do not 'nuke' each other before then.

 But, you have a point that a serious debate is needed about tactics and strategy, in Irak and elsewhere in the ongoing 'long war' with radical islam.  Such a debate is ongoing among serious grownups.  For most, however, it seems that infantile Bush-bashing urges and fairytales stand in the way.

@ Doney

You start off with the grandiose title of "appeasement", but you turn out to have absolutely nothing to say on the subject.  Instead, you jump on the facile bandwagon of Bush-bashing.  Blimey(!!), what is it with 'conservative' Brits these days!  You sound as confused as your compatriot 'Voyager'.

So, you buy into this fantasy of "mainstream muslims" who are supposed to be separated from their "maniacs".  That's exactly what Bush did, since he too frequently opined about a religion that had supposedly been hijacked by "maniacs".  I wonder if either Bush or you has ever watched Al-Jazeera, or read about what one can find daily in "mainstream" Arab newspapers and 'schools'.  But, I grant you, the government of Iran is definitely "mainstream" in the muslim world, at least the shiite one (which, some claim, is more "moderate" than the sunni one).

And, you buy this nonsense of "mainstream" muslims being "pleased" with the overthrow of the Taliban.  That shows how little you know about the muslim world.  But, again, I grant you that some muslims in the 'west' could be ashamed about the Taliban.  That doesn't mean that they are genuinely "pleased" by westerners fighting back.  After all, if they were happy about the overthrow of Mullah Omar, why should the suicidal behavior of 'Irakis' make them feel less "sympathy" for the overthrow of the Taliban?  What kind of "mainstream" is this that you believe in!   

.....

.....but no go.

@ CatherineNY

The subject (between us) was 'why Aznar is out of power', not that 'war is hell'.   You mistakenly claimed that Aznar was out of power because he supposedly "lied".  Then, you shifted to a new rationale and claimed that he is out of power because the war was "unpopular".  The opinion polls 3 or 4 days before the Madrid bombings contradicted that assertion of yours.  Since you cannot get around that 'fact', you now shift the subject to the 'general undesirability of war'.  Who is going to disagree with that?  Certainly not me.  

Is it really so difficult to revise wrong-headed opinions that you have to resort constantly to shifting the goal-posts?  An honest debate is something very different.

On the general undesirability of war we can all agree.  That is a gratuitous comment or sentiment.  Democracies certainly (historically) never go to war against other democracies.  That should tell you that war - while in general undesirable - is sometimes unavoidable or less bad than the unpleasant alternative.  The reason why you could visit the museum at the Hotel des Invalides is because Americans fought a very bloody war to free Europe.  And that war had become inevitable, and was infinitely more bloody, precisely because it had been preceeded by a decade of appeasement (the manifest character fault in the contemporary west-European character that you deny, against clear historical evidence).  

My conclusion is that museums can become useless, even negative, if people forget their history - or worse, if they consciously distort it. I doubt your claim that the New York Times is not your newspaper, since you sound very much like its editorial board.

@ CatherineNY

Thank you for thoughtful comments. Nevertheless, they do not make sense to me.

1) Earlier you said that Aznar is out of power because he "lied".  I disputed that.  There is no way you can know that he knew "immediately" who was responsible for the bombings.  You have to put things in the Spanish context. Basque bombings have a very long tradition in Spain, jihadist bombings did not.  I repeat that I believe that Aznar's speculation was politically-motivated, and sure the war was unpopular (how could it be otherwise?), but this does not equate to a "lie". 

2) The previous point has become moot, since you now claim that he is out of power because the war was unpopular.  I dispute that too. The opinion polls showed clearly that Aznar was substantially ahead until.....the jihadi bombings!   Al Qaeda & Co had very clearly announced their intention to punish those European allies that had joined the coalition to free Iraq from the Baathist (Arab nazism) tyranny.  And they cleverly timed their deeds in function of the Spanish election schedule.    My conclusion: Al Qaeda is right in its estimation that the Spanish voters could be intimitated.  Because they were.   Thus, Aznar is out of power, not because he "lied ", but because appeasement is a deep character flaw in the current European character.  And it will ultimately bear the same fruit as in the past.

3) Contrary to what you think, people generally can "see" very well why "we wanted a change in foreign policy".  However, the word "change" can mean anything.  Unless it gets more clearly defined and specified, it becomes pretty meaningless.  Clamoring simply for "change" alone is the hallmark of facile minds.   

Many Americans are disgusted with the anti- American attitude coming from Europe. To get a current view of the European thinking, just read the official E. U. blog, Euobserver. It is full of anti- American views. They ignore the many problems facing all E. U. member countries and they focus their anger at the US. They have endless articles about; the claimed CIA prisons and claimed CIA rendition flights that might have refueled in Europe.

Just imagine the ‘terror’ of having a CIA plane land on a European airport to take on a few tons of jet fuel and fly on with a terrorist on board.

They think that putting ‘panties’ over the head of a prisoner is worse than hacking off the head of a live Infidel in Iraq. The one fact that is easy to see is, they hate America and our attempt to fight terrorism offends them.

The French are the leaders of the anti- American attacks. I am one of the millions of Americans who will not support the loss of one American service member to save the French from any ‘civil war’ they might have. It is time the Europeans learned that ‘what goes around comes around.’  I remember the French telling the Turks that if they allowed the American military to have access to the Turkish- Iraq border, they would block Turkish membership in the E. U..

These are American allies or American enemies?  It’s time we more carefully defined who are our allies.

It is past time for Europe to notice what is happening around them. 

So all this facts about the overpopulation of the world, making it running out of natural recourses and warming up of the earth because of the massive energy needs; all those are just nonsense for you guys. Because in some ancient book there was mentioned “Go and multiply” We should stop al thinking, deny the obvious, and continue our self-destructive multiplication in blind faith and adoration of God Almighty. Let’s sponsor NASA. We’re in a bad need of an other planet.

Nansi:

Maybe you ought to ask your self why

France is ready to attack Israeli planes when they fly over Lebanon...while they sit and watch Hizbollah dig more trenches and drive by in trucks loaded down with weapons.

Maybe you ought to ask your self why

Hamas is allowed to shoot rockets everyday into Israel and NEVER challenged to stop by Europe or the UN? 

Maybe you ought to ask your self why

Hamas is dressing up their 2 year olds with suicide bomb belts?

Maybe you ought to ask your self why

You don't notice the double standards?

Perhaps it is because you are too busy fitting out a suicide belt of your own.

oiznop

Someone sent it to me in an email, who sent it to him in an email, etc.

I didn't include the subtext after the Title.....

(Robin Williams, wearing a shirt that says "I love New York" in Arabic.)

People posting on this site repeatedly insist that America will not be dragged into any civil wars in Europe, to which I must keep responding:  what was the campaign in Kosovo if not an example of America being dragged into a European civil war?

@ CatherineNY

 1) What makes you so sure that Aznar "lied"?  How could he have known in 1 or 2 days who was responsible for the train bombings?  His initial 'speculation' might have been politically motivated - which politician doesn't do that? - but how could he know at that point with certainty that he was "lying"?  It is not because the naive-left media keeps repeating the same mantras ("Bush lied", "Aznar lied"....) that you should be parroting them.    If Aznar is no longer prime minister it is NOT because he "lied", but it is because the radical islamists said (in so many words) to the Spanish people "jump, or else", and...they jumped!   

2)  People respond differently to "jokes". That's OK.  But the joke of 1 'unusual' professor ( let's admit that he/she must be out of the ordinary) CANNOT be the reason why "people wonder why Americans voted the way they did".   In any case, why do you care about "people" wondering?  Do you think the Spanish care about Americans "wondering" about why the Spanish vote the way they do?   You may claim to be "conservative", but (as a New Yorker?) you seem clearly afflicted by a heavy dose of naive-lefty perverse selfhatred.  

Radical professors, both on the left and the right, and both in Europe and the USA, say nutty things all the time. Take Ward Churchill from Colorado calling the victims in the twin towers "little Eichmans, or nazis, or whatever", or French professors spouting conspiracy theories about the US government being 'behind 9/11'. Should any of these "jokes" make people wonder why people vote elsewhere in the world the way they do?

Perhaps you are a "conservative" faithful reader of the New York Times?

Two things. First, if Mr. Aznar had not decided to lie to the Spanish people about the dreadful terrorist attacks in Madrid, perhaps he would still be in power. Second, as an American (and a very conservative one), I am appalled by the "joke" that the university professor made about dropping the atom bombs on Europe, but I am not at all surprised that he is associated with one of the neocon think tanks that influence Bush. And people wonder why we Americans voted the way we did!

"Some Guatemalans complain that the birth rate in their country is a problem, but I do not think so. On this issue I agree with the late Julian Simon who argued that people are “the ultimate resource,” they are a country’s greatest wealth."

Yes, I see. So the fact that 41% of the country's population is aged 14 or under, the median age is 18.9 years, 75% of its people are classified as living below the poverty line, and there is vigorous emigration (much of it illegal) to the USA is nothing to worry about?

Bob Doney

I never thought I would see anything said by Robin Williams that I would agree with. Are you sure that is the same one, as I have always associated him with one of the many traitors in Hollywood. I certainly welcome the change, if it is indeed him. Can you provide the source?

Bibi Netanyahu will I think be the leader of the final Israeli battles to defeat those who won't let little Israel live in peace. A site that explains some of the history of that region in a realistic way is: www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html This is a flash site and has a very good presentation.

Why?  It is a western society still based on Judeo/Christian values; is democratic; and is a buffer zone between the US and the east (former Communist Russia and now terrorists from the middle east).  Just makes it harder to get over here through Europe if they're also looking out for suspected terrorists.  European countries also cooperate with the US in terror investigations.  Regardless of anti-American/anti-European feelings, they need each other.

Dear Paul:

You quoted a university professor who said, "...that America would never again come to the rescue of Europe".

I think we should announce that public...

BUT

Secretly not mean it.

Announce it so that perhaps the shock would stir the European governments to action.

However, the world would be a much worse place if indeed America, Israel, and perhaps Costa Rica stood alone.

Furthermore, I can't believe Americans could sit idly by and see Europe go through a genocide of its non-Islamic citizens. I think deep down it is the nature of Americans too help and give. Christians here (not liberal leftist pseudo "christians", but true Christians, unless we're eliminated, would be the first to call for action to rescue Europe from tyranny.

Perhaps the people in the governments ought to be "drawn and quartered", which the Muslim will probably do anyway, the poor people of Europe don't deserve the tyranny of Islam. No one deserves such evil thrusted upon them.

I do think we Americans are more apt to come to the aid of Europe, than Europe is to our aid. But Christianity is different than secularism. With Christianity, we would be spiritually compelled to help. There is this sense of moral duty or obligation to rescue the man from the ditch. Not just pass by.

However, America is NOT a Christian nation, just a nation with some Christians. For the foundations of the United States were built on the foundation of Christianity & Judism, yet they are eroding. Absent a spiritual revival, we are on the road as well to being "post-Christian".

The late Julian Simon has been derided as one of the "Cornucopia Economists." He belonged to the "more the merrier" school of population control, a view I do not share. Europe already has plenty of people, and a demographic warfare to see who can produce the most children is not needed. What is needed is a stop to Muslim immigration and mandatory deportation for Muslim troublemakers, even if born in Europe.

The Plan (continued)

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. W e don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way , no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer
saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want a piece of me?' "

The Plan (continued)

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers
or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort
to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else(like Canada ! or Oklahoma !). They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given
to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

continued

From a very popular American comedian, Robin Williams to the rest of the world...a message for you.  (Europe, pay attention as his sentiments are a growing one in America)

The Plan

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those "good ole boys", we will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East , and the Philippines . They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

continued....

Europe has been anti-American with France leading the pack since the end of WWII.

I believe what Mr. Belien is saying, that there is a growing anti-European sentiment among Americans. One commenter correctly noted that it's rare for university professors to be Europhobic, but it is possible. I can name one or two well known academics who openly believe so, though they are certainly outnumbered. There is no way that America will ever step in to save Europe again. The Left who "idolize" Europe will not support a war to save them because they support no war whatsoever. The Right who are angry at Europe will not for obvious reasons.

That does leave Europe on its own. No blood for cowards.

""Anti-American feelings are growing in Europe. I think these feelings will exacerbate in the coming years for three reasons, all of which have to do with the current crisis in Europe:""

I tend to disagree with that statement though.From who will this bitternes grow ? I don't believe the MSM or the politicians will blame the US for their own inflicted troubles,although certainly some will try.
The general populae (the aboriginals) will have more than enough on their hands to shake off their bi-cultural 'friends'.
When their asses are on the line eventually all groups in Europe will turn to America to save them once again.
An isolationist America is not so bad after all according to the Europeans of today, not for America anyway.In that regard they are correct.

But i see the future brightly for Europe: I suspect genocide on only a few dozen million people in Western Europe, less than 1 billion deaths on a worldscale (My first estimates were between 2 or 3 billion deaths) and some nuclear warfare.
But definately no World War this time.
P.S. I just hope Europe stops critisizing Israel then..THAT is so...it's just..well..hypocritical.
Well ,that's just my opinion.:)

The joke made to you at an American university (about the atomic bomb) is certainly odd. American universities are filled with elitist leftists that idolize Europe and her culture and think Americans are nothing but stupid hicks, trust me, I attended one.

However, your article was great dealing with your conference in Guatamala and the state of European opinion about the democratic victory in America. People, whether in Europe, America, or anywhere else make a nation great, not a government. We all need to remember this and stop considering children a burden that cramp a certain lifestyle. We need to appreciate life and honor it.

Thus, it would seem Christian values are needed to restore the world. These values should dictate to the government and not vice versa.