@ Onellion

1) Good for you!  You did put your own name under that thrashy three-liner of yours.  It doesn't change the fact that it was 'thrashy', and it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't put my own name under such thrash. 

2) You say "I did not bash Netherlands" ?  Come again? Let me quote directly from the last part of your thrash.

"...hypocritical...are the Dutch people. To be expected of the country that collaborated with the nazis even more than the French Vichy government. Dhimmis uber alles."

Does that count as an illustration of the lack of 'veracity' in some of your claims?  May I suggest that you first learn better how to 'qualify' some of your sentences, so as (for instance) not to confuse 'many Dutchmen' with THE Dutch people, etc...? 

However, I did like your "American joke" about never arguing with a fool.  

You will therefore understand why I am not addressing the rest of your 'analysis'.

What seems to have been overlooked in the debate over Hirsi Ali's name and nationality is that in Muslim societies, pastoral societies and/or largely preliterate societies (all three apply in this case!) personal names are far more fluid than we are used to in Western Europe. For example the present leader of the Palestine authority is known at one and the same time as Mahmoud Abbas and Abu Mazen.

Furthermore, state boundaries in Africa are colonial artefacts which take little or no account of underlying ethnographic realities. For example Somali tribes are to be found in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya, a situation that is further complicated by their pastoral migratory lifestyle.

Dear "marcfrans":
Since you choose to address me personally, I'll gladly respond. Let's take your remarks in sequence.
1. One must assume that you are not putting your own name...
On the contrary, I am. Unlike so many on the Net, I only write for attribution. Can you say the same, anonymous one?

2. under your piece of mindless Netherlands-bashing...
Try again, anonymous one. I did not bash Netherlands. I did bash Mr. Elst.

3. I, for one, would be embarrassed to put mine under such ranting...
My, my. Why don't you try telling us your real name and coordinates, and find out?

4.  It is the sort of trash that might give the equally mindless anti-americanism, so prevalent in Europe today, some degree of misplaced 'respect'...
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Still, it reminds me of an American joke: never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

5. It is clear that the subtleties in Mr Elst's exposition have escaped you...
As a matter of fact, there were no subtleties. Mr. Elst admitted that Ms. Ali said things that needed to be said. If that was his only point, why his remarks about the legitimacy of her being kicked out of the country?

6.  At least, he asked the right question: "who will carry the torch of freedom now" in Holland...
On this we are in agreement, hence my--accurate--description of Netherlands' history of appeasement.

7.  One can only hope that you would in similar circumstances...
Haven't had a chance to find out, so have no comment on this.

I am anxiously awaiting for her arrival. (the USA) especially if she is radically left.  The left here needs a heavy dose of reality with regards to Islam.

It will be extremely hard for them to call her a racist or an Islamophobe.  No doubt that CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) will give it their best shot though.

It is likely that I will not agree with all she has to say but she may just be the only one able to bring the Left and the Right together in this country on the single most important threat this country has seen since WWII.

This next year will be interesting indeed.

@ Marshall Onellion

One must assume that you are not putting your own name under your piece of mindless Netherlands-bashing.  I, for one, would be embarrassed to put mine under such ranting.  It is the sort of trash that might give the equally mindless anti-americanism, so prevalent in Europe today, some degree of misplaced 'respect'.

It is clear that the subtleties in Mr Elst's exposition have escaped you.  At least, he asked the right question: "who will carry the torch of freedom now" in Holland.   One can only hope that you would in similar circumstances. 

Mr. Koenraad Elst should stop his recto-cranial inversion; it is unhealthy. Ms. Ali told Dutch society in 2004 that she had lied on her initial application. No one made an issue of it until it was convenient for your political leaders, and she had become inconvenient. The Dutch government is simply hypocritical, as are the Dutch people. To be expected of the country that collaborated with the Nazis even more than the French Vichy government. Dhimmi uber alles.

@Sarpi

Sometimes people may be imagining they are "winning" while, in fact, they are losing.

On the assumption that the effective maintenance of freedom of expression is an essential prerequisite for the maintenance of genuine 'democracy' over the long term for any political system, it is easy to see that the short-term comfort-seeking ("relieved" that Ali is leaving) of your "two Dutch women" turns them into losers.  

Make no mistake. Hirsi Ali is not just against fundamentalist Islam. She is viciously anti-any-religion. On nearly every social issue her views put her squarely in the very radical liberal (left) camp in the Americal political spectrum. Which means she will clash hard and often with the US elite that brought her in (if she remains true to herself). It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

The US is lucky at times. It would appear that the Dutch need someone like Hirsi Ali, but they are not interested. I've talked to two Dutch women and if not exactly happy they do seem relieved that she's leaving. I guess everyone wins. I'm glad she's coming here.