Danish Imams Propose to End Cartoon Dispute
From the desk of Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson on Sun, 2006-01-22 21:31
Update (7 February 2006): The Cartoon Hoax
The Danish imams, who protested the publication of 12 Muhammad cartoons [see them all below] in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last September, have announced that they want to end the dispute. For four months the imams and their radical Muslim organizations have unsuccesfully demanded government censorship. However, despite immense pressure (also from international organizations such as the UN and the EU) the Danish government refused to call the newspaper to account.
Last week a couple of Norwegian papers decided to publish the cartoons in support of the Danish paper while in Denmark moderate Muslims, encouraged by the government’s refusal to be intimidated by the radicals, have distanced themselves from the imams. The latter announced on Friday that they no longer demand apologies from Jyllands-Posten for the publication. Instead they said they just want two things: a guarantee from the Danish authorities that Muslims can freely practice their religion without being “provoked and discriminated.” And a declaration from Jyllands-Posten that the cartoons were not published with the intention of mocking the Muslim faith. “We want Jyllands-Posten to show respect for the Muslims. This can happen with an apology, but it can also happen in some other way. We will leave it to Jyllands-Posten to come up with some ideas,” said Ahmed Akkari, spokesman of the Muslim organizations. “We want respect for Muhammad restored and we want him to be described as the man he really was in history, and that he gets the respect he deserves,” Akkari stressed that Muslim organizations are still deeply opposed to the publication of the cartoons.
The Muslim organizations and Jyllands-Posten met last week to discuss the matter. “It was a good and constructive meeting. We agreed that we need to find a solution,” said Carsten Juste, editor of Jyllands-Posten. Juste stressed that the meeting was one step in a reconciliation process which the Muslim organizations and the newspaper began in December.
Some sceptics wonder whether the demands of the imams have changed fundamentally. They still insist that Jyllands-Posten admit that publishing the cartoons was wrong and make amends for it. The sceptics argue that the paper should not settle for a compromise on freedom of expression by justifying itself. Others wonder why the radical Muslims appear to be softening their demand and seem so eager to make a deal. Perhaps the decision of Norwegian papers such as Magazinet to support Jyllands-Posten by publishing the cartoons has made the radicals reconsider. Perhaps they fear a domino effect. Some Swedish papers are considering publishing the cartoons as well. If the Swedish government subsequently follows the position of the Danish and Norwegian governments, refusing to interfere and limit freedom of expression, the position of the radical Danish Muslims, who are looking for international support, will only weaken.
According to a poll taken this week among 1,047 people in Denmark 57% of the Danes support Jyllands-Posten’s decision to publish the cartoons, while 31% disagrees. Young people and men are more likely to support the decision. Almost two out of every three males and 61% of people aged between 18 and 25 years of age did so.
Meanwhile an international organization of Muslim intellectuals has threatened to mobilize “millions of Muslims all over the World” to boycott Danish and Norwegian products unless the Danish and Norwegian government condemn the publication of the cartoons, which is called an “attack on the Muslims of the World and on the Prophet.” In Saudi Arabia people are receiving e-mails and sms messages urging them to boycott Danish products “until Denmark offers an official apology.” The Organization of the Islamic Conference protested last week’s publication of the cartoons in the Norwegian paper Magazinet. The Iranian embassy in Oslo said that freedom of expression cannot justify publishing the cartoons. However, Finn Jarle Sæle, the editor of the Norwegian Christian newspaper Norge I DAG, announced that his paper is also considering publishing the cartoons. He called upon other Norwegian editors to do the same. Sæle says that so far many of them have only written editorials supporting freedom of expression but have not dared to publish the cartoons themselves.
Asked if wider publication will not lead to unnecessary confrontations between Christians and Muslims Sæle said the intention was not to provoke just for the sake of provoking, but rather to confront radical Islam in Norway. Perhaps it is necessary to provoke in order to do that, he said. Sæle wants the Norwegian imams to publicly oppose the death threats that have been sent to Magazinet’s editor Vebjørn Selbekk. According to Sæle these threats are not just directed against Magazinet. They affect the entire Norwegian media, not just one editor who dared to stand up for freedom of expression.
More on the Danish cartoon case which The Brussels Journal has been covering from the beginning: Click here (see links at end of article)
Jews made lfe easier for arabs
Submitted by Tosin (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:00.
perhaps you 4gotten that the jews that lives in ur country makes ur country worth living. The jews made ur economy what they are today inshort they control the world economy, be it in europe or America and that dirty Arab country of yours. gets your fact right if not for jews arabs will only know Camels nothing but camels and its shits
to nasty jew 2
Submitted by nermin on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:42.
The jews made ur economy what they are today inshort they control the world economy, be it in europe or America .
that i swhy hitler was so keen to burn as much from you as he could and taht is why you were living like rats in europe hiding in closed cantoons and allays and that is why shakspaer depicts you well as teh greedy , malicious usury in his play merchant of venice 200 years ago.
You cant just help to know
Submitted by Tosin (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:53.
You cant just help to know that you are a jew ...you are from a jew blood ..if not for abraham that slept that egyptian slave the arab race would have not ben created. You are from the Jews if you dont know and God cursed you all by saying to ismail that his hand will be on people and that peoples hand will inturn be on them...Thats the reason why you muslim world can and will never win over isreal cos they are ur boss. Today what hitler did is a sorry action cried out by Germans if not for America I am sure you all gonna be dead by now coz Hitler believes in only blonds with blue or green eyes... so nermin or whatever ur name is Go eat a fat Pig and get a life
to tosin
Submitted by IslaamIsPerfect on Sat, 2006-02-04 14:41.
hmm how evil indeed u r to call the father of all the prophets Abraham may peace n the blessings be upon him , claiming that he slept with an Egyptian slave?? so r u saying the father of Isaac whose descendent u claim to be was an adulterer?? if so than u r the children of adulterer right?? n since u got abit of brain to see that Arabs n Jews r same blood than why hate us soo much?? truly Allaah indeed knows his creation n he knows u guys better than u knowing urself n indeed jews like u deserve to be cursed in both worlds n im sure hitler had seen the evil u Jews carry with u , may Allaah guide u poor soul ameen
to Tosin
Submitted by nermin on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:06.
i dont eat pig mr jew for your knowledage only....and at thened israel willnever win the arabs and you know that....th eeurppean found it a solution to get rid of you and in thesame time control the arabic region . you are just puppet and mutual interest . you know very well that there will be a big battle between muslims and jews called hermagdon and you know very well who will win .if you donot ask your rabbis....
how nasty you talk about the great prophet abraham.you say slet with an egyption slave ..is that th eonly language you know to speak about your ancestor .....anyway you can ask why abraham married that egyption woman....to giv ehim the som he craved most an dgod blessed that son but in your corrupted book you say abrahm abandoned his eldest beloved son which are all lies and shit as you are used to be
To Nermin
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:22.
Thats exactly what am saying you guys are looser and for sure I will wait and see how israel deals with you bunches of camels..why God then asked for tthe other son Issac to be sacrifised if if so much love that useless Ismail....you can get the rethym even in ur so book of story you recorgnize jesus that tells you where the truth is and the book that has it. You all gullible ...mohammed is just a mere trader that made himself a hero...you guys are doomed to die ..i know that you dont eat pig ...but I willsurely feed your kinds with it when we are done wiv you bastards. read your koran very good its all filled with lies. so soon you all forgot about 7 day war of all arabs against one country israel but lost what a shame ....Egypt, Jordan made peace and lebanon was under israel for ages...If not for the europeans israel would have colonized you all coz it will take israel just few day to over run you camels. Sick bastards. Thats why the 1st sexual experience of age 14 of an arab boy is witha goat or sheep ...proove me wrong and i will surel give you facts
to nasty jew
Submitted by nermin on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:38.
what are the number of those jews who make life easier for arabs...you always beat the hand that help you..you were burned in europe when you didnot find any land to host you but our islamic countries thisis always your attitude .go and hit your head in the crying wall....you the killer of christ as christians says. hitler has done well by cleaning the world from people like you
nermin rhymes with vermin. A
Submitted by Dunkie (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:57.
nermin rhymes with vermin.
A Jew, a Christian and the prophet Mohammed walk in to a bar..........
Why ?
Submitted by M R (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:22.
Hi..
I am Egyptian .. Mouslim ..
After all this shit I have only one question.. Why ?
Why to take a religion subject as a fun material ?? .. why to make ppl hate each other ?
I really don't have an answer .. but really danish goods now stay on store shelves till they expire !!!
My point of view .. it was really a very stupid move from this newspaper ..
M R
Submitted by antimuhammed on Wed, 2006-02-15 12:56.
HEY MUSLIM, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
TO THE WORLD, YOU MUSLIMS ARE A BIGGER IDIOTS AND FOOLS FOR REACTING AND BEHAVING THE WAY YOU DO. WHAT THE NEWSPAPERS DID IS TO EXPOSE YOUR INSANITY AND INTOLERANT AND AUTHORITARIAN RELIGION THAT IS MORE OPPRESSIVE THAN THE WORST DICTATORS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
ALL HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND YOU MUSLIMS DO NOT HAVE RIGHT TO TRY CONTROL PEOPLE'S MOUTHS, FINGERS, HANDS AND FEET.
WHEN YOU START IMPOSING YOUR BELIEFS ON NON MUSLIMS YOU ARE ASKING TO BE EXTERMINATED..
SIMPLE AS THAT.
THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD, WILL FIGHT AND DESTROY YOU MUSLIMS IF YOU CONTINUE TO INSIST ON YOUR WILL AND FORCE YOUR RELIGION DOWN PEOPLE'S THROAT WHO DO NOT ACCEPT IT, WHICH IS THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD.
YOU WILL DIE AND BE EXTERMINATED BY NON MUSLIMS!
Technical issues?
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:42.
Sorry to go off topic, but am I the only who's experiencing slowdowns and who's having difficulties posting?
Technical problems
Submitted by Bob Doney on Thu, 2006-02-02 01:56.
am I the only who's experiencing slowdowns and who's having difficulties posting?
Have a look at the site stats - "External counters" in the right hand column. The site has had half as many visitors today as it did in the whole of January!!
Time to get a bigger server, Mr Belien!!!!
Bob Doney
To Nermin
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:58.
Nermin, for some reason I can't post part 2 of my answer. (And believe me I've tried).
I'll give it a go again tomorrow.
Part 2 to Nermin
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:51.
"you donot know anything about us.."
I find it ironic that you presume to know what I don't know. Quite a trick.
"we are arabs are passionate people and have hot blood and half of our population are young people who already have lots of emotions and hot blood…"
I can appreciate that, but I wonder if you think that excuses young (and armed) Middle Easteners who burn the Danish flag and yell stuff like: "Oh, muslim! Crush the Danes' heads!"?
Or the death threats made against the cartoonist, Scandinavians in Palestine or the bomb threats against Jylland Posten? (I'm sorry if these questions seem offensive, but I'd like to clear that up.)
"I read that a 6 years old Saudi boy said to his mother that he will not eat his breakfast if she gave him Danish cheese or butter"
That's nice, but somehow I don't think he did that of his own volition.But let's not dwell on it.
"Finally donot you agree with me that certain issues are better to avoid than to provoke ..noone gain from this cartoons issues and if you are wise you see that the wo;ld is already fulminating and no need for more…"
I believe needless provocations should be avoided, but
I also believe that people should be free to express their opinions without fear of retribution.
"we believe in Christ and you too but we donot depict him but you do..so there is a huge difference.."
I agree, which is why I believe that you should be free NOT to draw your prophets as per your religion just as we should be free to draw ours...
To conserve room, I'll skip all of your rhetoric questions and carefully selected examples and jump right to the crux of the matter:
"come and e see before you speak"
Having been to a country does not afford anyone a particular, intellectual authority. It is quite possible to render a qualified opinion about something you have never seen. For instance, I have never seen the pyramids, and yet I remain convinced they exist.
Moreover, I'm confident that you have never spent a significant amount of time in Denmark and obviously you don't think that precludes you from debating matters involving that country.
It's a two way streak, Nermin.
PS: Nermin, could you please add a few indentations and some separate paragraphs. It's extremely hard to read such an uninterrupted block of text. Thanks.
"ok can you tell me why is islam is growing ?.
can u tell me why churches are deserted?
looking forwards clear answers"
So you tacitly concede that I'm right and immediately change the subject.
That's cool, we can do that:
I believe Islam is growing because of the lax immigration policies of many western countries, because of soaring birthrates in developing countries, because of what happens to apostates, meaning that extremely few people convert from Islam.
Another major contribituting factor to Islam's RELATIVE growth is that atheism is on the march in the already secularized societies of the West, while others still seek spiritual - though often Christian - fulfillment outside organized religion.
Reply to Anonymous11
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:11.
Hi,
It is obvious in your writing style that your intelligence is above average. It is a pleasure to read Nermin's and your responses. Keep up the good work.
I've lived in several countries. Christian and muslim. Democracy and freedom of speech, although may sound straightforward and global concepts, they actually are not. These two have been stretched, used, and abused in the context of human rights, predominantly by the (western) developed countries, and their citizens who have the blinders on. Democracy, just as the communism was meant to be, a great concept for the western world, no doubt in my mind. The recent understanding of democracy is a bit different from total participation, and the ruling power of the majority while not squashing the minority rights. In fact, democracy requires the majority to protect the minority rights. I am not saying that Danish etc. governments are not protecting everyone's rights equally.
It is obvious that the developed countries in the west have been enjoying extremely high level of wealth, mainly due to the capitals gained from the 20th century resource exploitations of the undeveloped countries. (Example ref: Jacobs, M. 1991: The Green Economy. pp. 36-37). I would like you to be aware that the current wealthy status of most European countries are due to the transfer of funds from underdeveloped world, those funds and capital that allowed the Europeans to create "peaceful!" and "democratic!" settings. No, the current wealth of Europe is not due to the good things that the Europeans achieved. It is mostly due to the exploitation. If you look at the current and recent history, you can see the examples of such set-ups, and subsequent declines and the failures. I am afraid, as long as the Europeans are under such illusions of possessing great democracies etc,the current status will not be sustainable.
It is also interesting to see (first hand, by being in most of such countries) that the third world is also aware of this exploitation scheme, and the recent global resentments, in local and regional scales, are the end results of such increasing awareness.
Some European countries are progressive but at the same time selectively fair, very opportunistic, and exploitationist (if such a word exist!).
World is unique. People are different. Respect and tolerance are the most important principals for a peaceful and progressive world where we can all share and enjoy its resources. Making fun at things, whether you think is a birth-right given by "freedom of speech!", mocking with issues that are holly to billions of people, is a sign of total ignorance and complete lack of respect. I support any writer's right to express his/her opinion, but I also hold the right to condemn the level of ignorance that this so-called writer and the publisher to carry on with such a line of publishing. It is a complete and unnecessary stupidity, due to absurd ignorance, and lack of respect.
Look at all these postings full of hatred in this webpage. Like Arabs are stu... and all. Is this intelligent, or necessary? Who benefits from arguing like that? The same mentality with quite a bit of racist angle, as the publisher followed. It is a shame really.
Your thoughts?...
Current wealth
Submitted by Bob Doney on Thu, 2006-02-02 22:48.
No, the current wealth of Europe is not due to the good things that the Europeans achieved. It is mostly due to the exploitation.
An interesting thought. Can you explain then what happened after 1945, when Europe's wealth was almost completely exhausted by having fought two world wars. Yet within 20 years most countries in Europe were once again wealthy. Interestingly enough in the 30 years or so since then most of the other countries of the world have also achieved unprecedented levels of prosperity. How did they do this if they were being exploited by the wicked Europeans?
Could it be that Western inventiveness in science, technologies, markets, organisation, governance and law gave benefits both to Western countries and any others that chose to adopt them? I'm sorry, but the evidence just doesn't support your "it's all down to exploitation" theory.
Bob Doney
Two way street
Submitted by Bob Doney on Thu, 2006-02-02 22:34.
It is a pleasure to read Nermin's and your responses. ...
Look at all these postings full of hatred in this webpage. Like Arabs are stu... and all. Is this intelligent, or necessary? Who benefits from arguing like that? The same mentality with quite a bit of racist angle
Have you particularly enjoyed Nermin's anti-Semitic rants, and Nermin's claim that I am like Hitler, want to burn Jews, and have a black heart - all apparently carried in my genes?
Tolerance needs to be a two-way street if it is to work.
Bob Doney
Response Two Way Street!
Submitted by A New Believer on Sun, 2006-02-05 05:42.
Bob! Oh my Gods!
You say that Nermin is tolerant!
Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit! I never knew that!
I thought it was all the manical ravings of a lunatic madman. Praise Odin! You
have shown me the light.
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
sorry who is baldur
Submitted by bashar on Sun, 2006-02-05 05:45.
and odin
to new beliver
Submitted by IslaamIsPerfect on Sun, 2006-02-05 13:58.
thanx for sharing info abt ur religion , i like learning abt diff religions, never knew such a religion existed interesting
thanxx n yes u don’t have to be a Muslim , Islam is not forced upon ppl but rather ppl r giving a free choice to accept or reject Islam but as a sincere person as u seem to be , why not look in to Islam n learn this religion too , its always good to now wats there n if u r interested in how Muslims think n why they think in certain way than look in to Islam
take care may Allaah guide u ameen
Response to ISISPerfect
Submitted by A New Believer on Sun, 2006-02-05 15:15.
Hahaha! how nice!
Sorry, no thank you for the kind invitation. I was married to a muslim arab, lived in syria.. He had two imams for relatives, a few generals in his family and a sister in the secret police there. And I took my degree in comparative religions. I know all there is needed for me to know about Islam. That is why I am an Odinist! I prefer the good old days before all these new fanciful religions began erupting.
Odine be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
May Odin's Eye spread wisdom!
to new beliver
Submitted by IslaamIsPerfect on Thu, 2006-02-09 12:11.
hi n u welcome as i said b4 Islaam is no compulsion i hope i made dat clear n to u is ur religion to me is mine:) as far as u being married to a Muslim in Syria or him having imams in his family or u living in Syria or having ur degree makes no difference , by marrying a Muslim doesn’t mean u know Islaam cuz juat like most christains n jews most Muslims dont practice their faith as they should n most arab men r iqnorant of Islaam specially as far as women's right in Islaam is concerned , and also having degree makes no diffrence i too have studied other religions but i wont go arround calling al others fake even tough my faith in Islaam is unshakable alhamdulillaah ( all praises be un to Allaah the lord n the creator of this vast universe)
n by the sound of it , u must of been married to a bad Muslim or the least someone who had no idea as to how to treat a woman according to Islaamic teaching else u wont be divorced...
anyways if u r happy by being wat u r than be it so ,"to u is ur religion to mine is mine" nevertheless i will ask Allaah(God) to guide us all to the truth ameen
PEACE!!!:)
To IslaamisPerfect
Submitted by A New Believer on Thu, 2006-02-09 15:10.
I have no quarrel with you and you are right, there are a lot of muslims who do not practice as they should. Having the degree does not make me perfect either, but then it leaves me with a complete understanding of what it should be. My library is filled with books. Roman Catholic, Bhuddist, Hindu, Islamic, Zoroastriasn, My own dear religion, variosu tomes of the different Prostestant groups.. etc..etc.. So I study and I like that as well. People that treat me nicely I treat the same. May your religion give you peace, may you have what you need to make life good for you! I never said your religion was fake, but I am sick and tired fo people of your religion acting as if everything they say and do is perfect and leaves no room for anyone else. I also think that threatening to kill someone because you do not agree with what they say think or do is reprehensible, ignorant, childish and inane. When someone is nasty with me I can be nasty back. When someone is nice to me I can be nice as well. He and his family were soomething esle Islaam ..something else entirely. But then many times I thought the whole neighborhhood and city were insane.
I know how you feel, I get raptures when I read the Eddas and my faith is unshakeable also. So peace at least between you and I and I wish you much joy and happiness in life!
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
The Aesir give you blessing!
Answer from Anon11 to Anonymous
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 16:41.
"It is obvious in your writing style that your intelligence is above average. It is a pleasure to read Nermin's and your responses. Keep up the good work."
Hey, thanks a lot! Right back at you.
"It is obvious that the developed countries in the west have been enjoying extremely high level of wealth, mainly due to the capitals gained from the 20th century resource exploitations of the undeveloped countries."
Untrue, and I seriously doubt you could find any reputable historian or economist to back up that claim. You could always try to dig up a Communist historian who'd reaffirm your belief in "the exploitation" of the masses. Now, bear in mind I'm not approving the colonialism or imperialism of old.
There are three major reasons for the undeniable success of the West:
1. Geography: We lucked out and got domesticated animals at an early stage, a forgiving climate,and the benefit of being influened by Middle Eastern, Asian and African cultures. I'm not too proud to admit that.
2.Capitalism! The importance of this cannot be over-emphasized! Corruption, nepotism and oppression could have easily undermined the benefits of geography.
3. Christianity (though not all researchers include this): Not because God dotes on his followers but, because Christianity contains the components needed for a free society to flourish. Most other religions are static and resistant to change, some even reactionary. Muhammed for instance stated that "My generation, then the next, then the next...."
If you compare the Bible to the Qu'uaran (if I'm spelling it wrong, please correct me),
you will find that the Bible is not a chohesive whole, but rather an anthology of texts written by humans, which are by definition imperfect. On the other hand Muslims regard the authenticity of the Qu'aran to be above all doubt and reproach.
The separation of church and state promoted by Christianity is another huge part of the West's success as well as its inherent compatibility with capitalism.
""peaceful!" and "democratic!" settings."
What's with the quotation marks? Even if your premise, unlike mine, is that the wealth of the West is entirely based upon exploitation, surely you must concede that Western societies are indeed "peaceful" and "democratic", particularly if you start comparing them to other nations.
No?
"Some European countries are progressive but at the same time selectively fair, very opportunistic, and exploitationist (if such a word exist!)."
I'm going to need examples. Do you have any idea how much relief and aid developing countries receive from the West? In addition, there are plans in the works for MAJOR debt cancellation?
Hell, the Palestinian economy is entirely dependent upon support from the EU. Why the Arabic countries are not the ones lifting this burden I don't know...
"I support any writer's right to express his/her opinion, but I also hold the right to condemn the level of ignorance that this so-called writer and the publisher to carry on with such a line of publishing."
Excellent! That's what freedom of expression is all about: The free exchange of ideas.
Jyllands-Posten were entitled to publish those cartoons and YOU are free to demonstrate and call them disrespecful fools for doing it. If people voice their outrage peacefully no one will bat an eye.
"Respect and tolerance are the most important principals for a peaceful and progressive world where we can all share and enjoy its resources"
I think everyone can agree about the crucial importance of those principles. I certainly can.
"It is a complete and unnecessary stupidity, due to absurd ignorance, and lack of respect."
Are you aware of the context in which the cartoons were commisioned?
I'll be happy to play "Devil's advocate" and explain it to you if you have not...
"Look at all these postings full of hatred in this webpage. Like Arabs are stu... and all. Is this intelligent, or necessary? Who benefits from arguing like that?"
To be fair, there are asshats on both sides, including Muslims.
Neither of these groups contribute to a meaningful dialogue, e.g. "Muhammed was a pedophile", "Lol, arabs r teh suxors" or "Crush the heads of the Danes!", or "Hay, guys. less go burn the danish flag!"
As for whom it benefits, the answer is clear: No one!
PS: I really appreciate being able to have a clam and collected conversation about this without it escalating into a flame war. Thank you.
PPS: I'm having massive problems posting (probably due to the server load) so it may be awhile before I can get back to you.
From Anon11 to Anonymous
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 16:11.
"It is obvious in your writing style that your intelligence is above average. It is a pleasure to read Nermin's and your responses. Keep up the good work."
Hey, thanks a lot! Right back at you.
"It is obvious that the developed countries in the west have been enjoying extremely high level of wealth, mainly due to the capitals gained from the 20th century resource exploitations of the undeveloped countries."
Untrue, and I seriously doubt you could find any reputable historian or economist to back up that claim. You could always try to dig up a Communist historian who'd reaffirm your belief in "the exploitation" of the masses. Now, bear in mind I'm not approving the colonialism or imperialism of old.
There are three major reasons for the undeniable success of the West:
1. Geography: We lucked out and got domesticated animals at an early stage, a forgiving climate,and the benefit of being influened by Middle Eastern, Asian and African cultures. I'm not too proud to admit that.
2.Capitalism! The importance of this cannot be over-emphasized! Corruption, nepotism and oppression could have easily undermined the benefits of geography.
3. Christianity (though not all researchers include this): Not because God dotes on his followers but, because Christianity contains the components needed for a free society to flourish. Most other religions are static and resistant to change, some even reactionary. Muhammed for instance stated that "My generation, then the next, then the next...."
If you compare the Bible to the Qu'uaran (if I'm spelling it wrong, please correct me),
you will find that the Bible is not a chohesive whole, but rather an anthology of texts written by humans, which are by definition imperfect. On the other hand Muslims regard the authenticity of the Qu'aran to be above all doubt and reproach.
The separation of church and state promoted by Christianity is another huge part of the West's success as well as its inherent compatibility with capitalism.
""peaceful!" and "democratic!" settings."
What's with the quotation marks? Even if your premise, unlike mine, is that the wealth of the West is entirely based upon exploitation, surely you must concede that Western societies are indeed "peaceful" and "democratic", particularly if you start comparing them to other nations.
No?
"Some European countries are progressive but at the same time selectively fair, very opportunistic, and exploitationist (if such a word exist!)."
I'm going to need examples. Do you have any idea how much relief and aid developing countries receive from the West? In addition, there are plans in the works for MAJOR debt cancellation?
Hell, the Palestinian economy is entirely dependent upon support from the EU. Why the Arabic countries are not the ones lifting this burden I don't know...
"I support any writer's right to express his/her opinion, but I also hold the right to condemn the level of ignorance that this so-called writer and the publisher to carry on with such a line of publishing."
Excellent! That's what freedom of expression is all about: The free exchange of ideas.
Jyllands-Posten were entitled to publish those cartoons and YOU are free to demonstrate and call them disrespecful fools for doing it. If people voice their outrage peacefully no one will bat an eye.
"Respect and tolerance are the most important principals for a peaceful and progressive world where we can all share and enjoy its resources"
I think everyone can agree about the crucial importance of those principles. I certainly can.
"It is a complete and unnecessary stupidity, due to absurd ignorance, and lack of respect."
Are you aware of the context in which the cartoons were commisioned?
I'll be happy to play "Devil's advocate" and explain it to you if you have not...
"Look at all these postings full of hatred in this webpage. Like Arabs are stu... and all. Is this intelligent, or necessary? Who benefits from arguing like that?"
To be fair, there are asshats on both sides, including Muslims.
Neither of these groups contribute to a meaningful dialogue, e.g. "Muhammed was a pedophile", "Lol, arabs r teh suxors" or "Crush the heads of the Danes!", or "Hay, guys. less go burn the danish flag!"
As for whom it benefits, the answer is clear: No one!
PS: I really appreciate being able to have a calm and collected conversation about this without it escalating into a flame war. Thank you.
Mohammad Cartoons
Submitted by Sam (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:30.
It is amazing that few cartoons created such a huge havoc and perhaps boodshed in the Moslem world! It tells you how vulnarable this religion is.... Being a Moslem with deep sceptisizm I just support such cartoons as Moslems need to know what Islam really stands for rather than what the Mullas are preaching. Moslems need to be exposed to literature that is currently banned in the Moslem world and now the move is to bann it outside the Moslem countries. I appeal to the Western media to publishes literature about the truth of Islam and Mohammed, as this is the only rout for Moslems to read the truth...
This religion needs to wake up and undergo major facelift, otherwise it is doomed to vanish since it is propagating Jihadists. These are anxious to kill as many innocent people in order to have sex with virgins !!
Danish Imans propose ...
Submitted by bernhard reck (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:20.
Gratulation zu Ihren Artikeln über dieses Thema. Wir haben Ihren Beitrag auf unserer Website verlinkt: www.hausamblender.com
Prophet Muhammad - Cartoon
Submitted by The Sword of Allah (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:39.
As a Muslim myself, I find these cartoons offensive, and it just goes to show that although the West claims they are not at war with Islam, they tend to contradict themselves through their actions. What people need to understand is that there is a difference between "freedom of speech" and preaching hatred and offending over 1.6 Billion people.
However, that being said, the West can create all the propoganda it likes against Islam and our beloved Prophet Muhammad, the leader of all prophets and mankind, one day they will see the TRUTH, by then it will be too late for them to change their ways....
No matter what the West and it's allies plot against Islam, Allah is always plotting against them, and Allah's plots cannot be foiled. The religion of Islam continues to grow at a remarkable pace, and it is now the largest religion in the world.
Habib-Allah, Rasoul-Allah, Imaam Al-Mursaleen!
ALLAH'U-AKBAR!
Re: prophet Muhammed - Cartoon
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 22:36.
"What people need to understand is that there is a difference between "freedom of speech" and preaching hatred and offending over 1.6 Billion people."
Who's preching hatred? Frankly, I think those cartoons are extremely benign, though I'm not denying that Muslims were, in fact, offended. But ALL religions are subject to satire and, yes, in some cases ridicule, but why should yours be exempt?
As for your distinction between freedom of speech and giving offense, you're partly wrong.
Freedom of speech ENSURES that you can voice your criticism of others, even your state, your religion or the religion of others. It is an integral privilege that, sadly, is rarely seen in the Middle East.
But since you're partly wrong you're also partly right:
Freedom of expression is rarely absolute, in that most states have minor restrictions in place - usually to prevent defamation. You can't walk into a crowded theater and yell "Fire! either for that matter.
In Denmark, for example, racist statements and blasphemy are outlawed, but the Danish DA - for lack of a better word - did not find that any laws had been broken. So what's the problem?
"and it is now the largest religion in the world."
Actually, Christianity remains the largest religion even though Islam IS growing.
And no, to the best of my knowledge we in the West are not plotting against Islam though it saddens me greatly to hear that Allah is plotting against us.
Could you tell me what that last exclamation means by the way? (I know what "Allah'uakbar" means...)
to Anonymous from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 22:45.
ok can you tell me why is islam is growing ?.
can u tell me why churches are deserted?
looking forwards clear answers
is islam growing?
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 12:21.
Islam appears to be growing because Indonesians are having more children than other Muslims. However, subtract the Arab suicide bombers, etc., and you'll see that Muslims can't count, they just inflate. As for Christians, Christ set us free, we don't have to pray 5 times a day in gibberish. We pray in our hearts anywhere.
Islam is spreading because
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 12:39.
Islam is spreading because muslims breed like rabbits! Our western ideals do not apply to these people. Countries world wide are pandering to their ideals in an attempt to be tolerant.
We are instead losing our own cultures because of their slow but spreading ways!
to Anonymous from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:49.
you are dripping hate ....
when we say islam is fast growing religion .this doesnot mean in islamic countries Mr ignorant....islamis the fast growing in USA an d france ....go and search...it attracts intellectuals and university stuffs there ..not by breeding like rabbits mr fool.....go an dsearch for
1-professor jeffery lang professor of mathematics , university of kansas.uSA
2- dr murad hoffman ,ex german embassador and harvard -gradute.
3- italian embassador to saudi arabia..Mr torqani..
4- go and search for islam attracts ellite in britain..
these are few examples
then come and face me
to all against amyscout43 da bastard
Submitted by IslaamIsPerfect on Sat, 2006-02-11 12:19.
Amyscout is a prime example of a Zionist Jew the DEVIL in disguise, he claims that Muslims are racist n yet looking in to his responses u see him being a filthy pure racist jewish DEVIL. This is what he says
YOU NEED A JEWISH DOCTOR. THEY HAVE SUPERIOR INTELLECT AND WISDOM WHICH KING SOLOMON
IMPARTED TO THEM BY BLOODpoor thing haha that’s what u think u lil pig u racist bastard anyways to all muslims n decent none muslims plsssssssssssssssss iqnore this psychotic mental twisted minded idiotic person by the nick of amyscout43 in this website n pls put him on iqnore as I have.
may Allaah guide us all ameen
Don't tread on me
Submitted by Patriot on Sat, 2006-02-11 13:57.
so be it
threaten no more
to secure peace is to prepare for war
so be it
settle the score
touch me again for the words you'll hear evermore
don't tread on me-James Hetfield
keep burning our flag you fucking morons
payback's a bitch
To Nermin
Submitted by tosin (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:06.
how intelligent are moslims when a gullible imam can just tell you that virgin awaits you in heaven if you kill urself....hahahaha...you need to get a life b4 life gets you Nermin. One more question how many virgin men awaits ur women you all perverts.
and i believe that the intellect it has attract are only studying it not believing it
to tosin
Submitted by bashar on Sat, 2006-02-04 16:28.
there will be 72 virgin waiting for us and river under our feet and for you the hell is waiting for your stupid studying ass
to tosin
Submitted by nermin on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:29.
Here mr jew if you are lazy to search about dr.jeffery lang from amzaon books , as the man not only convert but wrote 3 books till now about his convert.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0915957671/102-9484010-9729759?v=glance...
regarding beautiful women awaiting for good men and martyers in heaven.i see it as the least minimum reward for those men ..the palestinian young men who scarify their souls to defend their land are always at their twentieth ,never married and never has any relationship with women without marriage as islam says.why you deny on those men the pleasures you enjoy…also god an d islam speaks to people as humans not as angles and you cannot deny that this pleasures is the most important to men.. did u understand or not.
To Nermin
Submitted by tosin (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:55.
Perhaps not...How can I understand you? Cos all u say about one stupid men that converted to muslim is that what freedom of religion and speech entails....While you keep talking about been blessed with oil you 4gotten that america has oil...but it contains concentration of sulphur that makes it longer in process....or you think there is no iol in africa...thats why I said you all dome ass M...Fuckers....without the west buying ur oil you all gonna be be drinking your oil.Nothing of Islam interest me ..coz i saw ur prophet Mohammed masturbating....Palestinians are destined to be slave to the jews forever...that I read in the bible ...it also says about that seven day war where god said that they will run to egypt for help instead of them to turnm to me but will be defeated coz the jews are his people. To be a muslim is to have aids or Hiv you are all dieing slowly..Nermin
When armageddon does come
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:18.
When armageddon does come the jews will be the victor not the crazy muslims. How mislead you are by your brainwashing cult(Islam). No matter how many million camel fuckers there are, GOD not that pedophile allah will step in to save his children the JEWS.
My posts are up, Nermin.
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:15.
Looking forward to your response.
To Nermin
Submitted by tosin (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 13:59.
You cant just help to know that you are a jew ...you are from a jew blood ..if not for abraham that slept with that egyptian slave the arab race would have not been created. You are from the Jews if you dont know and God cursed you all by saying to ismail that his hand will be on people and that peoples hand will inturn be on him and his generation.Thats the reason why you muslim world can and will never win over isreal cos they are ur boss. Today what hitler did is a sorry action cried out by Germans if not for America I am sure you all gonna be dead by now coz Hitler believes in only blonds with blue or green eyes... so nermin or whatever ur name is Go eat a fat Pig and get a life
thanks to brusselsjournal for this window of expression
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 12:59.
i thank brusseljournal for allow us opinion.
thanks keep doing a good job.
to nermin
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:17.
1. yes muslims get more children, and for peopel working and living in muslims states like saudi its imposibel to bee no muslims unleas they are high qualified.
2. yes we do not need the to contact good and we do not need to lay down on our knee 5 times pr. day.
just as a exampel i have not visited my mothers grav in 2,5 year. i do miss hear a lot and i can find the places without looking. Good is insided me not in a plase. Muslims can not understand that. They think that they need some rooles to live buy.
The muslim religion is week that is way the reaktion to a small provocation is that hard
Comment..
Submitted by M R (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:57.
I have a little comment about ur words " we do not need to lay down on our knee 5 times pr. day "
praying is not just to lay on my knees.. it is like a christian prayers but in islam .. prayers are in written times ..
Even if u don't understand what i mean ( Ithink u don't and u will never do ) .. this does not mean that it is acceptable to make fun of Muslims prophet !!
that is the point.
Re: Mohammed Drawings; Danish Leopard Tanks Defending "Muslims"
Submitted by A New Believer on Thu, 2006-02-02 08:00.
Sometimes I ramble on but many times I have a persistent thought, I also wanted to take exception to the boycotting of Danish goods. The threatening of Scandinavians. The Danish people have been very good to Muslims, they as well as the Norweigans, and the Swedish people have time and time again put their lives on the line to save "Muslim lives" in the Bosnian-Herzegovian War.
You see in a democracy where not all agree, the people will rise to a higher occassion and come forward to to do the right things. You believe they are denigrating Muslims and the religion..well the next times you think such things remember the soldiers that were not "Muslim" but of Nordern blood that went to keep the peace, and save "Muslim lives!"
This is about a Jydske Dragonregiment from Holstebro in Jutland.
I had an argument recently with an acquaintaince we were discussing the Bosian Serbian war in what was Yugoslavia. In particular we were discussing the UN troops. My acquaintance believes the UND troops were ineffectual and did nothing extraordinary! BAH! I say they did quite well but I used in particular an incident with the NORDBAT 2 units ( compiled Swedish, Norweigan, Danish forces). I am looking for confirmation that I am right. You are Danish ..so surely you must know this and can confirm for me what I say is true then.
I said that the Danish soldiers of an armored Leopard Tank division under command of a Lt. Colonel Moller and a second platoon leader named Kirk, with their men kicked the bums of the Serbs in an area near the Bosnian Muslim town of Tuzla. This is in April 29th of 1994 mind you. They were fired upon with antitank weapons having come to the aid of a Swedish observation post as well as the Bosnian Muslim civilians in and around Tuzla that had been shelled for the 28th time that day! They won the day and smashed the Serb attack, saving themselves and the Swedish observation team, and the Muslims citizens. Both Lt. Col Moller and Tank Commander Kirk received the "Ebbe Muncks prize of Honor"
Perhaps, next time when UNPROFOR troops are needed..maybe the Scandinavians should not lend troops to save people who obviously think so little of them, that they expect their governments to be responsible for every thought, cartoons, magazine and newspaper article that does not sing the praises of the Muslims and their religion. That they attack random Scandinavians who did not draw the cartoons, because they are handy and nearby.
Perhaps the next time an "aggressive Muslim" country attacks another "Muslim country", the Scandinavian people should just sit back and have some kaffee, read a newspaper, some cartoons, watch some television, play chess, go skiing etc. After all, holding "all Scandinavians responsible" for juvenile cartoons is that not equal to holding "all Saudi's responsible for Osama bin Laden; for beheading foreign journalists, workers, for everytime a MUSLIM terrorist detonates a device! Of course MUSLIMS never do things that are wrong. But even if they do, it is alright .. as long as they do it in the name of their religion and jihad.
Hmmmm! Perhaps some people should not get"too mouthy",Viking bloodlines never really died out...did they! Just because the Danes, Norweigans, Swedes and Finns grew peaceful and quiet..liking things cozy at home..does not mean the Nordern giants cannot be awakened. Once awakened the sons of Hengist, Eosa and Haakon, Haarold, Karl
may remind some, that they have not forgotten they are Viking and what a "beserker" can do.
" Just because the Danes,
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 09:26.
" Just because the Danes, Norweigans, Swedes and Finns grew peaceful and quiet.."
The Finns were not Vikings; the Vikings were Scandinavian Indo-European language speakers with a specific Viking culture. Finns, on the other hand, speak a non-Indo-European Finno-Ugric language, and has history of its own; in addition, Finland is NOT technically Scandinavian (not on the Scandinavian penninsula, and not largely settled from that penninsula). In speaking of the Finns along with the Scandinavians, the proper term would be Fenno-Scandinavia or Norden.
They did, however, do some trade with the Vikings, and a few Finns were perhaps Vikings, but the Vikings attacked and plundered the Finnic tribes like they did to others.
The Vikings left an imprint on Finnish culture, for sure, with its trade and settlements, but imperial Sweden politically took over what is now Finland for many hundreds of years -- during which time they (unfortunately!) considered the Finns as inferior forest people, with a strange language, as I've heard said. While Finnish mythology bears some imprints of Viking mythology, it has a common bond with many of the other Finno-Ugric peoples, and is rooted in that shamanism.
Sorry, I don't mean to be too didactic, but I feel it is an important distinction to be made.
To Nermin - Part I
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 23:13.
I'll answer your questions, but since I apparently can't post in "Danish paper apologizes, Dutch..." I'll address your points from there first.
I'm not sure I follow - perhaps because your English is less than excellent (no offense, my Arabic is no doubt worse), but am I reading you correctly when I interpret what you're saying to mean that only Muslims are required to follow the "orders of God" while everyone has to observe the prohibition against depicting Muahmmed even though it, too, is derived from Muslim dogma?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see why there's a distinction between the different prohibitions, i.e. the "infidels" can eat pork, but we can't draw a stick figure of Mohammed. You yourself said that it was not the WAY Mohammed was portrayed that irks you, but the fact that he was depicted at all.
"now I want to ask you quietly what did anyone gain from those photos…is this wisdom….is this logic instead of trying to build bridges between nation..we go on to cut relations and put hate and psychological bloack between nation.."
Hell, I'd love amiable relations with the Middle East, something we've always had by the way.
You're asking if it served any purpose and I'm going to have to say yes: I don't like the fallout, but the drawings exposed certain anti-democratic elements and the willingness of some people to give into the lure of self-censorship, the lure of subverting one's own ideals and values (such as the freedom of press) to placate others. Under no circumstances can a democratic nation accept that.
That said, I'm not thrilled with the way Jylland Posten went about it, but that is beside the point. Their democratic RIGHT to do so is what matters. I hope you can see that...
"i have never hated Denmark or have any thing with Danish people ..but now even if there was no boycotting, I would have psychological block…
So now you hate all of Denmark on the basis of a few silly drawings?
Man, that's cold...
But it raises a good question. A bunch of misinformation and flatout lies in the Middle East have been spread in the Middle east about this case such as the claim that Jyllandsposten published a lot more drawings, which were A LOT more hurtful. Other misunderstandings and pieces of mininformation include:
- The claim that the Danish queen has said that all Danes must fight Islam. WRONG!
- The claim that the Danish media are filled with anti-Muslim slogans and pictures of Muhammed.
WRONG!
- That derogative posters of Muhammed are plastered all over the place! WRONG!
- That the Danish government owns and controls Jyllandsposten. WRONG!
- That the Danish government was planning on publishing a severely censored version of the Qu'uran. WRONG!
So my question is this: Are you, personally, and people in your circle of friends and family aware that these things are not true?
I really hope so...
(to be continued...)
just a Dane
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 22:21.
There are some think that I do not understand. I do hope that I could get some answerers hear.
The newspaper JP in DK made an article last year on the self sensor ship that we do see in Europe media towards Islam. E.G. remember the killing buy extreme Muslim for artist in Europe.
If you would have been reading the newspapers in Europe for the last 25 years like me you would know that there have been many case with Christians insulted buy the newspaper and also many articles moving and changing the rolls for blasphemy. Also last cases against Denmark from Russia over the Tjetenian conferees in CPH (do remember this as I lost a contract in Russia because of it – at as the latest development they also what to kill us), with turkey regarding the Kurdish news channel in Denmark and the disagreements with USA during the cold war are just examples of a small countries with its own opinion.
I do hope that all on this forum are aware that the media in Denmark are not controlled buy the government. Problems with the media can only be solved with the cords and our queen is not allowed buy constitution to interfere in any political case. Actually see is only for decoration.
The drawing and the article as I did read it and still reads it can hardly without the pictures been seen as an insult to Islam.
Then the pictures lets just a second assume that the title did not say “drawings of the prophet”.
Some are jokes on the newspaper actually insulting it. Some a plays on the fear of Muslims and regional deferens in Denmark like – as the grads run to attack the artist – Easy guys After all it’s just a drawing made buy an infidel Southern Jutlander. Actually this like a lot of the pictures can not be called a picture of Mohamed as Mohamed would not bee seeing his own picture and sending cards with guns after the artist. The two pictures seems to be the most defending are one with the bomb – a play on Muslim terrorism that I do presume Is undoable as the fact that Buss is creasy like all he other fanatics. So is that insulting? The maker of the drawing did not make the terrorism happen hi just gave it a face. The on with the man holding a sword and have to covered lady’s (you can only see the eye) standing behind him. Well it’s a typical Muslim warier. I do presume that that is also a part of history. As a Dane I a proved of been the descendant of Vikings and would not feel it as in insult to be pictured as a warier. Then there humble man working in the dessert and some insult to the news paper not showing any resembles to a drawing of any Muslim.
So to my questions:
1: if the drawings were not of the prophet. Would they then be an insult?
2: is it not only for Muslims not allows making pictures of Mohamed?
3: if it’s only that fact that the pictures are showing the face of Mohamed that is an insult then please let me know what gives the Muslims in the world the right making demands to Denmark regarding what we do in our own country?
4: if you will say that it’s your right base on religions believes the please let me have a full list of what other things we have to change to submit to Muslim believes.
5. As this rights as I assume Muslims will demanded them, can not only be a right for Muslims I a free society like the Danish we also need a full list of what other religions demands we have to implement. It will give a lot holiday will I not?
Basically I believe that the Muslim world should stop it’s attach on Denmark and get on with there lives with or without Danish products. If you continue it will defiantly not be a more peace full world. May bee some argumentation that it would have been better not to make the drawing is understandable but really they can not be unmade.
So kill us all or get on with your life’s if you attack us I think we would have a good chance of wining. I mean 1, 5 billion against 4, 5 we would not miss with on single bullet and just for the recorded it was a joke.
Sword of Alla
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:45.
You need to change your name as the Sword is ancient and no more effective. Try my Moslem brother, Belt of Bombs of Alla, as this will get you further and faster with more deadly features, so that you will end up having sex to as many virgins as innocents you take with you!!
Arabic numerals
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 22:05.
Hey all you arabs claiming credit for "Arabic Numerals" show how ignorant you are. They were not invented by an Arab but by an Indian. They have been popularly called Arabic Numerals because that is who the Europeans learned about them from. I am not saying that there are no Muslim contributions to the world of science and math. Under the abissids there were many mathematical and architectual advancements, but the number system, that is not yours.
"The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer, since what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs. Instead, they were developed in India by the Hindus around 400 BC. However, because it was the Arabs who brought this system to the West after the Hindu numerical system found its way to Persia, the numeral system became known as "Arabic". Arabs themselves call the numerals they use "Indian numerals", أرقام هندية, arqam hindiyyah)." http://www.answers.com/topic/arabic-numerals
Sword of Alla
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:36.
Look at your name, I guess you need to change it as the sword is no more iffective. Try the belt bomb of Alla, as it will get you furthur into the lap of 72 vergins!!!
Re: prophet Muhammed - Cartoon
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:12.
"What people need to understand is that there is a difference between "freedom of speech" and preaching hatred and offending over 1.6 Billion people."
Who's preching hatred? Frankly, I think those cartoons are extremely benign, though I'm not denying that Muslims were, in fact, offended. But ALL religions are subject to satire and, yes, in some cases ridicule, but why should yours be exempt?
As for your distinction between freedom of speech and giving offense, you're partly wrong.
Freedom of speech ENSURES that you can voice your criticism of others, even your state, your religion or the religion of others. It is an integral privilege that, sadly, is rarely seen in the Middle East.
But since you're partly wrong you're also partly right:
Freedom of expression is rarely absolute, in that most states have minor restrictions in place - usually to prevent defamation. You can't walk into a crowded theater and yell "Fire! either for that matter.
In Denmark, for example, racist statements and blasphemy are outlawed, but the Danish DA - for lack of a better word - did not find that any laws had been broken. So what's the problem?
"and it is now the largest religion in the world."
Actually, Christianity remains the largest religion even though Islam IS growing.
And no, to the best of my knowledge we in the West are not plotting against Islam though it saddens me greatly to hear that Allah is plotting against us.
Could you tell me what that last exclamation means by the way? (I know what "Allah'uakbar" means...)
Opiate for the Masses
Submitted by John Dole (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:03.
What people need to understand is that there is a difference between "freedom of speech" and preaching hatred and offending over 1.6 Billion people.
No hatred in those cartoons, only amazingly accurate irony. A religion that preaches peace also being used for suicide bombings of innocent civilians.
You speak of offending 1.6 Billion people? Well there are more Christians in the world than Muslims, and being Christian and reading the bible is specifically denied in some Muslim states. Now that is a tiny weenie bit more offensive than some cartoons.
Try comparing apples to apples.
But regardless, I'll offend countless more billions. Religion is the opiate for the masses, where weak minded people try to explain away their ignorance in all things, and blame it on an invisible man in the sky. Ruling your lives based on mythology is sad yet funny to me. In your tolerant Muslim societies, I would be put to death for my powerful, and correct opinion on your (and others) religion. Tolerant my ass.
What people need to
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:45.
What people need to understand is that there is a difference between "freedom of speech" and preaching hatred and offending over 1.6 Billion people.
How do these cartoon preach hatred? They are just cartoon, nothing more, nothing less.
There are no hidden messages saying we should go kill all muslims, no boycots, no insults, nothing. They are drawing, get over it. No big deal...
cartoon hetze
Submitted by Anonymous Karel (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 19:13.
Sense of humour has to do with a notion of selfrelativity: seeing things in proportion and taking youself not too serious. That sense is lacking in the islam world today.
They go a great length in telling you that Mohammed is no God, but a human being (the christians claim their Jezus to be: God and Human at the same time). And per definition that means Mohammed can make mistakes like all of us: he is certainly not infaillable. He spoke Arabic, what is just another language - like Greek or Latin (or any other language for that matter). It is no holy language - language is a human invention and is never a perfect vehicle for thoughts. So the Coran cannot be holy: there are no holy books.
Via the Arabs lots of knowledge came to the West. True......,but they did not invent those knowledge themselves. They brought ideas from the Chinese and the Indians, which the West developed further.
Why could the West do what the Chinese, Indians and the Arabs couldn't: develop an true scientific and rational attitude? The Chinese emperor kept the inventions mainly for himself (afraid of democratizing!) and the Arabs stifled all individualistic thinking around 900 after christ. The Roman Catholic Church has tried to do that too, from 350 A.C., but around 1450 it lost its monopoly on scientific thinking thanks to The Renaissance.
From that time on the R-C.vision on the Bible,the World and man/woman was under attack. Knowledge has since been democratized.
Feeling of proportion, relativity of the truth (there is not ONE TRUTH!)and sense of humour stem from that period.
Moslims in western countries better get to grips with that phenomenon. Their thinking about men and world is outdated. When they attack their host countries, they show no respect to a great tradition of freedom of speech and thinking. Why should we respect people with no sense of humor?
Charles
islam by mel byt postaven
Submitted by panhu (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 11:35.
islam by mel byt postaven mimo zakon.
My advice to Dutch
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 23:20.
1) The queen of Denmark has given a speech about the European cultures and said bad things against Islam and prophet Mohammed (Muslims ignored her)
2) The prime minister of Denmark has pointed three times since the 9-11 against Muslims people (Muslims ignored him)
3) Some of the news papers have published articles against Islam and prophet Mohammed (Muslims ignored them)
4) The last topic is the caricatures of Prophet Mohammed.
People were not ignoring those because they are scared or afraid , but they said it may be a re-action of the 9-11 .. however, now they are not using the Danish products which may leads to economical problem in the Denmark.
On Other Hand, if Dutch have Humanity ,Values ,and respect the others religions they wont accept such thing on themselves or the others.
My Advice, Dutch need a guidance to show them how to understand and respect the others. However, if they do , they wouldn’t reach to this case.
"My advice to Dutch" Dutch
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 11:22.
"My advice to Dutch"
Dutch are actually folks from Netherlands, these are Danes
Freedom of speech - unknown?
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 00:05.
Freedom of speech is something not known in those countries. If Denmark is going to make an apologize it will be a catastrophe for western civilizations and it is absolutely unacceptable to start limiting the freedom of speech. Danish economy can handle the loss coming from the boicots, and in fact, every EU country should stop selling goods to the countries as a protest. And the most important thing to do is to stop the HUGE MONETARY AIDS to the countries. We are talking about a heck lot of money here and what do we get in contrast... threatenings for some stupid pictures.
To author of Western Hypocrisy
Submitted by lars (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 17:21.
Billions of upset Muslims, I can understand that some Muslims are upset about the cartoons, but billions of upset Muslims!!!!!
to lars
Submitted by islamisperfect (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 14:40.
hi lars
to us Muslim who happen to be 1 billion or more we love prophet Muhammad more than ourselves our mothers, fathers children n partners, another words every single Muslim in the world dat hears abt this cartoon story will be furious. so yes the whole Muslim world is angry not just some
This is true!Fact #1If it
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:48.
This is true!
Fact #1
If it wouldn't be for the US, Europe, Japan, China and even Russia there would be nothing in the Muslim world, Muslims can't even build their own drilling equipment. Or ever built or design anything that requires oil. The weapons they use are mostly Russian made. Drilling equipment is Russian, European or US made.
Fact #2
The Small numbers of successful Muslims grew up in the west and were educated in the west but still talk against the western countries that gave them the opportunities, educated and fed them. They love sales jobs where you sit on your ass and can lie and cheat to make a quick buck.
This is completly surreal
Submitted by Gorm (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 15:44.
As a Dane I must say that I’m watching how this case is developing with absolutely disbelief as it now has reached a completely surreal level.
How can some stupid caricatures cause such an outcry? They aren’t even particularly well made.
Born and bred and living in a modern well-functioning prosperous democracy with a free and open press, it is really hard to understand the hysteria these twelve ludicrous caricatures have caused.
I can assure any Muslims out there, that none of these caricatures were meant as an insult to Islam or Mohammed.
I read the newspaper the day they were published and didn’t even really notice them and neither did most Danes.
In the public debate in this country satire, irony, sarcasm and humour are all legal means and widely used and accepted to get the message across. In the past I’ve seen many way harsher caricatures of e.g. authorities, politician and the Queen.
In 1984 an artist even did a huge mural of Jesus with an erect penis. This caused a bit of a stir and some heated debate about the artistic right to freedom of expression for some time. As the mural was done in a train station it was eventually painted over, but the artist wasn’t fined or jailed or anything – the public simply found it to be a bit too much.
In this light the caricatures should be seen and were they meant – as a mean to facilitate debate and NOT to insult Muslims and their faith.
I think this ongoing free and open debate has helped strengthening both our society, democracy and Christian faith immensely.
Cheers
Gorm
I'm usually quite tolerant
Submitted by Jen (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 04:33.
I'm usually quite tolerant of different cultures and religious stances, but this is ridiculous. I am sick of Muslims whine and whine about how they are unfairly treated and that everybody is out to get them. You don't hear about massive boycotts and riots because somebody made fun of Christ or burned bibles. People accept that because it's called "freedom of speech." If Muslims are not willing to accept that there are people who makes fun of EVERYTHING including their prophet, they should just go back to the middle of the desert where they came from instead of invading European nations. What about radical Muslims that behead civilians? They do not want tolerance, but total acceptance. What is so special about Islam that they need to take priority over other relgions? Can somebody give me an explanation to this?
For the Muslims in Western Europe: You are there because you chose to leave your native countries. That means that you have agreed to be a part of the country of your choosing. If you want to keep up your cultural practices to the nth degree, then you should have just stayed in the middle east. Assimilate -- and realize that you guys are your own worst enemy. Now what? are you guys going come after me too and blow me up?
Mohammad really was a terrorist
Submitted by John (not verified) on Fri, 2006-02-03 04:33.
Moslems are actually following Mohammad's lead, because he was also intollerant of anyone who opposed him and he used terrorism. It is a flawed religion with a flawed leader. Mohammad had a woman poet, Asma bint Marwan, murdered becasue she wrote poetry that scolded residents of Mecca for not standing up to him. He also had an old man killed for questioning his links to any god. When Mohammad was forced to leave Mecca the first time, he supported himself by robbing caravans. He was no prophet, he was just a clever man who used people's superstition to gain control of them. Then he used persuasion, superstition and when those didn't work, terror, to maintain control. (See "Muhammad" by Professor Maxime Rodinson). I recommend reading the Koran to see what a joke this religion is. Mohammad is so transparently trying to control people by claiming to get messages from his god it is laughable. For example he tells them that god says when people visit "the prophet" they should go home at a reasonable hour, and not peek at his wives on the way out.
The Moslem reaction to the cartoons is an indication of the primative superstitious nature of Islam. Arabs and other Moslem countries should have education in civil rights tied to any aid. They still live in the dark ages with respect to religion.
Thank goodness the Danish, Germans and French have the courage to publish their ideas no matter who objects. We should not let Moslems blackmail the civilized world through threats or murder of anyone who expresses opposing views. If they persist, Islam must be eradicated for the good of civilization and mankind. I am sorry that United States publishers have lost their nerve. We should publish these and any other cartoons of Mohammad and Islam in solidarity with those who stand for freedom of thought and speech. We should also withdraw our embassies from Saudi Arabia and any other country that defends that type of religious tyranny. In fact any time religion and governments are mixed it leads to enslavement of the people and wars, and the UN should move to separate church and state around the world. The world will be a much better place when religion is purely a private matter.
to jen
Submitted by shady (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:51.
ok jen i can probably write all day about this..i'll try to be specific as possible ...first of all i would like to tell u some facts about islam..
1)part of the islamic belief clearly states that a muslim MUST believe in god,the day of judgement and respect ALL prophets ,holy books and angels...it's a must ..i can never make fun of prohet muhamed, jesus or moses (peace be upon them all)..on the contrary i truly believe that they were magnificent human beings.. u didn't hear of boycotts coz someone burned the bible coz simply u have to have a muslim lunatic (i mean it he has to be literally crazy) with international media all around him ...this kinda acts are not acceptable to muslims..
2)u can not say by any means that arabs live in the desert..i'm not blaming you coz i know it's the media responsibility which related everything got to do with arabs with camels and deserts!!!i consider this a demonstration of how ignorant the human mind can be..
3)prophet muhammad(pbuh) said that "taking the life of one innocent human being is equal to killng all humanity"..it's the ultimate and extreme sin in islam...whoever does that must have some serious troubles in understanding what islam is all about..u just can't imagine how forbidden that is...
the only thing i approve in ur message is that a great deal of muslims is actually the worst enemy of islam..people forgot how great our religion is..and the west forgot to read about it..and the gap is getting bigger everyday..i just wanna say to the ignorant,stupid, airhead who drew these drawings " u made millions of muslims sleep uncomfortable knowing that there can actually be someone that ignorant like yourself..may god forgive u and guide u.."
Where is the tolerance
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 16:58.
Christians are not allowed bibles or churches in Saudi. The muslims and their clerics in Iran and elswhere scream death to Israel. On Aljazeera. com web spite and hatred gets sung. Tolerant people in the West are starting to become more intolerent of muslims living among us but adamant that we have to change. No you change this is my culture.
To I'm usually quite tolerant
Submitted by 2Smelly Minds (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 12:52.
The freedom of speech that you call it as Democracy however in reality it is just a different aspect of your religious belief in practice. Muslims have respect and originality to their own core belief. People must respect this other than mocking them. Some people make fun of Jesus Peace be upon him, that we can never do, however this does not give right to make fun of other religious objects and you can not call this as the Democracy. Nobody has to explain you about priority of Islam that is complete religion. I advise you to go to bookstore and order one of those Idiot books about Islam and learn about its wisdom. Being ignorant is not the way you like!
Muslim did not want to come but the west stole its base nourishment and still stealing from it currently in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Iran next... You can drive Volvo because you have money that came from Muslims and other people you imperialized (stealing, murdering then liberating)
Back to the history, you learned everything from Muslim Civilizations buttoning shirts, functions of restrooms to healing sick, usage of numbers (math) and physics but now you are acting, as you are the smart one... Sad, how can such ignorance be exist…
Cihan
Euler - not muslim, Newton -
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 2006-02-03 04:37.
Euler - not muslim, Newton - not muslim, Einstein - not muslim, Gauss - not muslim (and I am only talking about maths and physics here). really, Islam was the birth of many great ideas about 600 years ago. The rest of the world has caught up though, whereas most Islamic states are just living off the oil you have (which by the way won't last forever...)
In democratic secular societies, we allow for multiple religions to co-exist. No religion is above criticism nor should prevent people from expressing their opinions. If you don't like that, you should go and live in a country that forbids it. I am sure there will be a happy existence for you in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Don't impose your values on others.
Need to know...
Submitted by 2Smelly Minds (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 12:47.
The freedom of speech that you call it as Democracy however in reality it is just a different aspect of your religious belief in practice. Muslims have respect and originality to their own core belief. People must respect this other than mocking them. Some people make fun of Jesus Peace be upon him, that we can never do, however this does not give right to make fun of other religious objects and you can not call this as the Democracy. Nobody has to explain you about priority of Islam that is complete religion. I advise you to go to bookstore and order one of those Idiot books about Islam and learn about its wisdom. Being ignorant is not the way you like!
Muslim did not want to come but the west stole its base nourishment and still stealing from it currently in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Iran next... You can drive Volvo because you have money that came from Muslims and other people you imperialized (stealing, murdering then liberating)
Back to the history, you learned everything from Muslim Civilizations buttoning shirts, functions of restrooms to healing sick, usage of numbers (math) and physics but now you are acting, as you are the smart one... Sad, how can such ignorance be exist…
Overstatement
Submitted by Bob Doney on Wed, 2006-02-01 12:55.
you learned everything from Muslim Civilizations buttoning shirts, functions of restrooms to healing sick, usage of numbers (math) and physics but now you are acting, as you are the smart one
A little bit of an overstatement here, methinks. Everything? I know for a fact that Muslims didn't invent zip fasteners. Or non-stick frying pans. You should give us dumb Westerners some small credit.
Thank you very much.
Bob Doney
saudi business women from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 13:11.
The Saudi women you claim to have no right have the equal right to divorce herself as any man and this right is given to her by islam more than 1400 years ago .not by the west or the east ..while even any European princess cannot have this right till now. not only this but every western country and every state in USA is making their own laws concerning divorce, an issue which is settled 1427 years ago… for your knowledge, saudi business women were the one to launch this boycotting to Danish products .
huh,, well,,, you are asking
Submitted by sahar on Wed, 2006-02-01 13:07.
huh,,
well,,, you are asking us to give you some credits,,
ok then we admit that you have done alot for chefs and helped them cook better,,
anyhow,,
if anyone is looking for a better life,,
our Holy Qur`aan has left nothing,(when i say nothing i mean it) in life that didn`t talk about.
you can just learn how to read arabic,,and studying qu`raan would be an enogh degree to continue your life with.
You asking?
Submitted by Bob Doney on Wed, 2006-02-01 15:22.
our Holy Qur`aan has left nothing,(when i say nothing i mean it) in life that didn`t talk about.
How do you know this if you haven't read every book ever written?
Bob Doney
Sorry !
Submitted by Hamed Ab (not verified) on Mon, 2006-01-30 14:27.
This Pictures has no result for denmark & this web page unless that muslims be offended & thay will be against denmark & this publisher of this pictures . in my idea this works hadnot result unless angry of muslims , are you agree with my idea ?
Behavioral Boundaries
Submitted by dag (not verified) on Mon, 2006-01-30 22:38.
Islam is encroaching the Western world, legally through immigration, socially through da'wa (or preaching,) demographically, and also by classical jihad (armed conquest.) But the greatest advantage the Muslim movement has over Europe seems to be the unwillingness of Europeans themselves to draw and define boundaries of acceptable behavior within the West if not throughout the greater world.
Tolerance is a great thing, one man allowing the other to pursue his private interest as he will in turn to be left alone by others. Tolerance, though, is not apathy, not moral and emotional nihilsm. That would be apathy, moral and emotional nihilism. To disregard the rights of others to know the boundaries of the acceptable before they cross them into the fatal zone is a failure of social responsibility on the part of all tolerant people. To continue to move the boundaries of the acceptable, to continue to abjure ones social responsibilities to keep the irrational within the bounds of sanity for their own protection, to appease for the sake of ones moral vanity is to invite resistence in kind. To set firm and non-negociable limits to behaviour and thereby protect infractors from our reaction is morally imperative. "I will go this far, and I will go no further."
Islam broached the bounds of reason and behaviorable acceptablity long ago, long before 9-11. Islam, far from being a 'religion of peace,' is a 7th century warrior code practiced by those who can get away with it. Islam is a poligion, a political religion, and it is not rational, not open to reason. Islam is extreme in its canonical core; and Muslims, being raised into orthodox Irrationality, are dutiful irrationalists. They need known boundaries. They have none of their own in terms of acceptable behaviour in the modern world of Europe. We must provide those boundaries for them.
The highly unfortunate reaction to the cartoons published at Hjlands Posten recently-- but it was in October!-- shows that Muslims do not have a sense of rational proportion in regard to their feelings of exceptionalist Muslim privlege. We, then, as humanitarians, produce and post graphics that are deliberately provocative of Muslims. Our graphics are sometimes outrageously insulting not only to Muslims but to the average sensitive person. Rightly so, in our opinions. We, having seen the extremes of Islam and the extremes of Muslim behaviour, have drawn boundaries, too close for some, that we call the line we defend.
Our attempts at provocation are not gratuitous but reactive and corrective. Muslims have gone too far, thanks to our frivolous tolerance of ill behavior and sentimental posturings of senstitivies to others. Now the boundaries must be restricted to tight cirles to clarify what is and what is not acceptable to us in the Western world.
Pushed too far, we push back too hard. Our hope is for a settlement of boundaries. It is to everyone's advantage that we define the boundaries at last. Reasonable people will likely concur. Others might not.
I as a prophet loving muslim
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 17:09.
I as a prophet loving muslim think that these are good in the long run. It increases out tolerance and it will help us blend in with the society better. But the process should be gradual. Ahmad
A link to the article
Submitted by oak (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-24 09:25.
Here is a link to the article.
A well-thought Muslim reaction to the cartoons
Submitted by oak (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-24 09:20.
As she nearly always does, Mona Eltahawy wrote a nice opinion article about the cartoon affair, from a Muslim perspective. She is a credit to her community, and they need more thinkers like her, in my opinion. Good luck to her.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article...
From the article:Instead
Submitted by Heloise (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-24 02:35.
From the article:
Instead they said they just want two things: a guarantee from the Danish authorities that Muslims can freely practice their religion without being “provoked and discriminated.”
Oh yes, they want to freely practice their religion that includes its own legal system, stopping work five times a day to pray and death for apostates. Wait, a religion with its own legal and political system, isn't that called a theocracy?
And this:
“We want respect for Muhammad restored and we want him to be described as the man he really was in history, and that he gets the respect he deserves,”
Mohammed's getting a lot more respect than he deserves due to the lack of knowledge the general public has about him. What do you know about him? Read the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim and the Sira or his biography by Ibn Ishaq. He's described in excruciating detail for all to see. These books along with the Koran are the foundational texts of Islam and define what it means to be a good muslim.
Heloise do u have any idea
Submitted by IslamIsPerfect (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 14:12.
Heloise do u have any idea of wat u r saying?
U r claiming that Muslims kill the apostates, for ur info this is a part of Islamic law which can only be implemented when thr is an Islamic leadership, which doesn’t exist n thus this law isn’t implemented plus u arrogant fool this is the same law that the torah n the bible claims for the apostates so why don’t u insult Moses or Jesus ??or insult Jews or Christians too?? Why pick Muslims? As far as ur comment goes abt prophet Muhammad n ur insulting him with ur pathetic lies than I got this to say to u” its ur kind that acted the way they did in abu ghuraib jail in iraq” its filthy and full of hate who enjoy the attack on a person who died 15 centuries ago n who isn’t amongst us to defend himself n its ppl like u who portray goodness like prophet Muhammad n Islam as evil n portray the evil like of abu ghuraib as good, so u r just as evil by going to the extremes of humiliating n torturing others .U r sick in ur head n have an evil heart . And am sure if u were able u be doing the same things as ur brethren did to poor Iraqi Muslims in abu ghuraib n n yet u the low scum is talking abt RESPECT plss keep ur filthy point of view to urself thanxx
It is all in (every) western constitution
Submitted by Harry - un ami qui vous veut du bien (not verified) on Mon, 2006-01-23 14:29.
Sorry dear Muslims. Freedom of religion, freedom of expression etc. is guaranteed by every western constitution. Discussion has been closed some 50 or more years ago.
Needless to say: if you do not like this there is more than enough space for you in Muslim countries.
Give up freedom of speech and expression? I don't think so!
Submitted by bludragont2 on Sun, 2006-02-05 15:01.
I was initially quite annoyed when I heard about the attack on the Dutch embassy I must say. If we Europeans have the freedom to create cartoons depicting Jesus, Buddha, and anyone else we want to, religious figures or otherwise, why on earth should we censor ourselves and not create cartoons about Mohammed? Although I can understand, to a degree, why the Muslims are upset, pictures of their religious figure being blasphemous and so on. I think that it needs to be stressed to these people what freedom of expression really means. They need to know too that people aren’t going to be forced into censorship due to their threats of violence and burning of embassies.
The more I read about this the more ridiculous it becomes too! Now westerners are being accused of burning the Koran as well? This just isn’t the style of westerners/western journalists. We are criticised and threatened for creating artwork and intellectual expression which somehow offends the global Muslim community. It is they who seem to want to solve problems by burning stuff…
i appreciate that freedom of
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 15:04.
i appreciate that freedom of expression is guaranteed by every western constitution. in fact many people in my part of the world have paid their lives to achieve this right (which incidentally is GUARANTEED in Islam).
But the practice has apparently overriden the rule.
This applies to all of you in (what many people here call) the hypocrite west.
Your freedom gave you the right to descecrate a prophet (any prophet) muslim, christian or jewish. But i dare you all to write one sceptic sentence about the holocaust !!!
you see ... you are not FREE after all ... nor do you have that guaranteed right for free expression.
At least we know our baoundaries.
Re: Mohammed Drawings, Fundamentalist Faith & Freedom of Speech
Submitted by A New Believer on Thu, 2006-02-02 00:45.
Well, such rhetoric! It is a simple case of freedom of speech! The only differnce between a Fundamentalist Christian and a Fundamentalist Muslim is they call god by different names and conduct their services in different languages. I notice both get "bent out of shape" when someone expresses an opinion different from their own or does not worship as they say exactly. I notice both really seem to get that *eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth vengeance thingie down pat*.
I notice both seem to be willing to "blow up people, shoot people, maim people and threaten people in the name of their version of the one true and only Holy God!" (please neither groupd say you do not or Christian would not be out their killing doctors and blowing up clinics, or setting fire to their congregation i.e. David Khoresh in Texas, or Jim Jones in Central America,
or exhorting people to only vote the cross, or exhorting people to shoot other peoples elected Presidents ie. Rev. Falwell. Muslims would not be bombing children, men and women, kidnapping people and beheading them, haranguing, brainwashing and recruiting people for death squads.
Decrying the Holocaust and calling others liars about it. If you really listen to both groups they are always moaning and crying and wailing about "death to the infidel dogs!" They would both censor, control, brainwash, destroy, and denigrate ANYTHING good and most assuredly everything bad. The trouble is everything is bad to both of them.
I am sorely surprised they both have not "outlawed" singing, dancing, laughing, smiling, cartoons, candy, soda pop, popcorn or anything else inclined to make one smile,laugh or just guffaw. Maybe they were out of line, but you get out of line also at times. And if they were so pure they would not hide behind religion whenever doing their dirty work. Those Muslims are residing in "free societies" where they are allowed to dissent freely and complain.
Their mouths would be stuffed with rags getting the stuffing beaten out of them if they were dissenting in many of their "own" homelands. Of course, that is not counted.. it is all about religion. Well they have religious freedom. They get to worship to their mosques in Denmark. The Danish government has not closed them. Or was not that the reason some went to Denmark, besides economic reason. That they belonged to different sects.. ie Sunni, Shiate, Alawite, etc. Because they belonged to different sects, they were being repressed.
The Danes poke fun of Christianity also. Born to a Catholic and a Protestant, married and divorced a Muslim! I swear I think I have seen it all! Guess what! I am now a healthy, happy practicing PAGAN! GODS & GODDESSES BLESS US ALL!
Thank You Odin & Freya! Baldur save us!
I ran into their arms because of the Holy Christians and the Holy Muslims!
There are alternatives out there people!NOW! I expect someone to call me a non-believing infidel dog! And yet, I would lay down my life to defend your right to believe as you believe.
I will not try to convert you at the point of a sword! I will not torture anyone until they confess their sins and share my one and true faith, as I have heard it phrased before. I will not decry either of you as the "Great Satans", kidnap you, kill you, maim you, try to commit genocide on you or against you. I will tolerate you, bite my tongue when needed and turn the other cheek. Both groups talk about compassion, tolerance etc...and they are so sincere as long as it does not mean the other guy might be right or have the right to say something different!
In a "democracy" not everyone agrees with everyone else about anything! We have the right to disagree. EVERYONE at some time or other is offended about something or other. If you never want to get offended, your feelings, hurt, your nose out of joint or upset.. Then go home.. to where ever it was you came from first.. That is not directed at anyone group of people it is directed at ALL PEOPLE! EVERYWHERE! Because in a "democracy" that is what happens. A mind may be spoken.
What is not allowed are death threats, kidnappings, bombings, assassinations, examples being made of. And if these folks were so secure at home they would not be sitting in other places throughout the world angry and ready to kick bum all the time. They would be at home in their former homelands governments face.. Shouting, gesticulating and raising holy heck about things there.
But... they seem to be there in Denmark getting upset. Of course, any little thing sets fundamentalists off these days. And so many are bent on "jihad!" And if their religion is as wonderful, beneficient, compassionate and caring, as I keep hearing. Then they will recognize "juvenile humor" when they see it, lodge a simple protest and stop the death talk. Praise Odin! Thank you for listening!
Re: Mohammed Drawings, Fundamentalist Faith & Freedom of Speech
Submitted by Charlemagne on Fri, 2006-02-17 21:18.
"A New Believer" writes: Born to a Catholic and a Protestant, married and divorced a Muslim!. So now you're an unbeliever - I'm not surprised. Your tiny mind obviously could not make sense of it all.
I expect someone to call me a non-believing infidel dog!Non-believing infidel dog!
And yet, I would lay down my life to defend your right to believe as you believe.I doubt it; and in any case, people WILL believe what they want to believe, whether they have a right to believe it or not. Belief is not a matter of rights but of choices.
I will not try to convert you at the point of a sword! I will not torture anyone until they confess their sins and share my one and true faith, as I have heard it phrased before. I will not decry either of you as the "Great Satans", kidnap you, kill you, maim you, try to commit genocide on you or against you. I will tolerate you, bite my tongue when needed and turn the other cheek. Both groups talk about compassion, tolerance etc...and they are so sincere as long as it does not mean the other guy might be right or have the right to say something different. In a "democracy" ... a mind may be spoken. Charlemagne fought the pagans Danes and defeated them,and King Alfred fought the pagan Danes and defeated them. And now you claim democracy as your protection and right to exist!!!!! You don't seem to realize that many/most pagans are criminals in the eyes of Christians - criminals because they break the eternal law of God; criminals who, in the words of the apostle Paul "are deserving of (physical) death". And now all these criminal deliquents claim "human rights" and "democracy" for their protection! Don't forget the Nazi's were voted in by a democracy. Democracies can be entirely given over to criminals and criminal enterprises, like the democracy in the UK is run by criminals for the benefit of criminals. Those who entrust themselves to democracy are fools indeed. But the law of God remains unchanged and by it will all judged, whether democracy or no democracy.
----------------------------------------------------Mahomet is no prophet, Allah is no faith, Islam is no religion. Christ will destroy them all.
To Charlemagne I have
Submitted by A New Believer on Fri, 2006-02-17 21:54.
To Charlemagne I have spilled my blood for christians before, protected a jew and sheltered bosnian muslims from orthodox serbians, stood up for an atheist; my tiny mind taught comparative religion. But nowhere on this forum have I lied and not said I was not pagan I have been tortured, beaten, starved, whipped and a few things you might not like as well. That I did not choose your way is not a problem for me. I treat ALL people the way I wish to be treated..until they prove they do not deserve it otherwise
You probably did not read far enough to figure out that my grandfather raised me as a "pagan!" I will not apologize for what I am ..neither will I convert for you either.. I did not convert for the muslims, why should I for you. But I will fight if you desire on a field of battle, and I will go to my gods singing my death song HAPPILY! You see once more so no one mistakes it! I am not afraid of DEATH! There Nothing you or any muslim can say to me or do to me to hurt me..that has not been done already. And truly after that, it is not so hard to take a life or loose your own. I also have never hidden from any of you the fact that I am a pagan.. it is stated everywhere.. or did some of you think I was kidding! But my parents were one of you. So I honor them, by honoring what is held dear by you. By tribal law, they had to give me up to be raised the old way. That way we do not all die out. And it pisses off the Great White Father in Washington something fierce I suppose. So feel as you feel, but you cannot impugn my name or my honor.. and my new believer is meant for the Norse not christianity I am a NEW Believer as far as they are concerned, O Defender of the Holy Roman Empire!
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
Western hypocrisy
Submitted by anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 2006-01-31 13:12.
U r making me laugh abt ur western democracy. Hmmm so democracy in the west is only implied when it fits the western views else its called anything but democracy. With due respect to u personally I reject ur ‘western democracy” even tough I am a westerner myself n I object to ur pressurizing me to accept ur so called democracy when it fits u or else told to LEAVE to a muslim land. R u telling us all western converts to leave our country because we don’t agree with ur hypocritical so called democracy??? Jee thanx again it shows pure ignorance on ur behalf. What if a muslim draws the picture of denmarki president sucking other men’s bottom n showing his wife helping him by doing so?? Will that be ‘freedom of speech’ the so called democracy??? interesting how the west can force its view points on others in the name of democracy act soo low an arrogant n yet r given the excuse of being so called “democratic”. shame on u for accepting such low acts n insulting other peoples religion n inflicting pain upon billions of muslims in the world n yet calling it democracy. I wish a muslim publication in denmark print some filthy cartoons of denmarki president n his wife n will see if the democratic president will see that as a ‘freedom of speech’. I think u need to go back to ur moma to teach u the basics of life western constitution n yeah one lil advise from me , please look in to ur great history “the dark ages” while in the Europe people dint have more than 1 showe in a year the muslim world was flourishing in many filed of science and thanks to the muslim world the very computer u r using today which only understands binary language (01) was invented by the muslims in Arabia. If it wasn’t for muslims u be having shower 1 a year <<<.CHEEEERSSS >>>
Your statements are a testament to your ignorance
Submitted by mjmusa on Sat, 2006-02-18 16:33.
Hypocracy
Vindictiveness
Democracy demands tolerance and values freedom of speech....If you do not respect these vslues then go back to your muslim land which continues to living in simple binary theocracy...
Delusional......As for the West we have moved beyond simplistic binary thinking both from a technological perspective as well as a social perspective...
The point is that Western man, in spite of all it's past transgressions, continues to grow and develop daily in a more positive direction...
It's called growing up....
So grow up you hate filled simpleton