When is the E.U. going to address what Turkey is going to churches in Cyprus? http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=46544&eng=y

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As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I observed videotape of a chastened Muqtada al-Sadr emerging from a 'summit' meeting of Iraqi clerics yesterday.  I believe a fundamental shift has occurred, not only in Iraq but in Islam itself.  Here's today's report from Iraq on what happened and I was pretty close:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18278442%255E1702,00.html

(Hat tip: Captains Quarters)

I have only one question.

Would you be so kind as to quote me the verse(s), in its full context as well as an accurate translation from Arabic, that indicates that it is forbidden to depict Mohammed in a RESPECTFUL way?

This should be the starting point for any discussion on the cartoon issue.

Please feel free to consult any Islamic scholars on this question.
*********************
I am amazed at the total lack of response that I get from the MANY muslims I have asked this question.

Especially considering the many verses Muslims have quoted me in numerous forums regarding many other issues BUT NEVER THIS ISSUE.

Respectfully,
JMJ

Great idea!! I am signing up right now!

http://hmmh.blogspot.com/2006/02/dear-fanatic-muzzie-islamist.html

Support freedom and the victims by applying (results guaranteed) for the most prestigious award in figthing the fanatic Muslim fundamentalists:

http://hmmh.blogspot.com/2006/02/dear-fanatic-muzzie-islamist.html

Also name the responsible Quislings in our midst:
Name the quislings

The future of the EU itself is uncertain at this time.  At least two major countries of the original signers have voted "No!" and that was before the signal sent by Islam with it's riots.  So already the EU was seen as unwieldy, it's encyclopaedic Constitution overwritten and burdensome.  Add to that grotesque riots the culmination of which can only be read as a threat from Islam: "Obey us!"

Well, sorry folks, but that's just not 'on'.  The West is all about being able to say the truth and the truth is we fear Islam now...with good reason, it seems to me.  I've never known any church in my experience, which is considerable in 65 years, to threaten the whole world with murder and decapitations for any reason.  And the cartoons are a mere excuse.  The cartoons of other's religions in Middle Eastern papers are obscene and scurrilous; in comparison these were lyrical and clever but certainly not obscene.  Arab News routinely has the most disgusting cartoons against western icons and religious figures.  Furthermore when the cartoons first appeared in September 2005, Egypt's Ambassadress to Norway thought there should be more outrage and everyone dismissed her.  It was this lady who badgered the Danish imams to start an outcry and when the original 12 cartoons were deemed by the Lady Ambassador and the imams not to be offensive enough, they added another over thirty (not three as has been reported) far more offensive and to their liking.

Just for starters, aside from the fact these imams had the effrontery to fake cartoons OF MOHAMMED, RECREATE HIS IMAGE AND NOTHING HAS HAPPENED TO THEM FOR THAT OUTRAGE, there is the fact they have manufacturered and international incident which has cost a great many lives at this stage.

These imams from Denmark, Sheik Lashkar(?) and his aides need to be charged with murder and with attempting to destabilize several countries and brought to trial at the International Court in the Hague Switzerland for the crimes of International treason!

And that, is what ought to happen.  As for Turkey becoming part of the EU...don't hold your breath.  Nobody trusts Islam now, and any Islamic state's first loyalty will always be to Islam, not the laws or constitution of that country.  Any contract can be broken that is made with Islam; nothing is certain with Islam.  Islam says what is.  Who will deal with someone like that;  when the goal posts can be moved every time the representatives of Islam chose?  Or they will riot across the globe and kill babies on the other side of the world because you 'offended' them. 

Sorry!  We are taking our marbles and going home.

Do you really think anyone reads your comments that are so long that it becomes counterproductive to one's argument?

If I may suggest, try to refrain from copying and pasting or linking. Try to write two or three paragraphs maximum (5 - 10 sentences) with the occassional long post because of need. People will read these.

You will notice that is what most commenters here do.

If it takes longer than 3 paragraphs, try to clean it up in order to keep it concise and to the point.

If you must copy and paste, then pull the key quotes from the source and paste that.

We live in an age of an overload of information.

Unless, of course, your goal IS to overwhelm the infidels with information. But how effective is that if no one reads what you have to say.

However, your endurance is impressive! That is if there is only one emeda30?

I knew it came from Riyadh and Tehran, I just wasn't sure why and why Denmark.  Well...it's a way of easing out and saving face rather than being rejected.

There's a certain symmetry if Turkey remains part of the M.E. bloc because, ideologically more and more they are swinging that way.  It would be a trojan horse and not that subtle to have them in the EU.  Or in NORAD.  I think we have to be for more discriminating in future about tidying up 'loose ends' into neat little packages because it's possible.  Islam is not compatible with the other forms of government.  Most successful societies depend to a great deal on 'community spirit, and 'can do' attitudes; Islam demands you get permission before you can even THINK of an idea, then you must have the elders and the imams approve and forget any of it if you're female.  Oh yes,  there are a few 'token' examples of the independant entrepeneur or the 'liberated businesswoman' but all endeavour is moribund and tied up in convention and tribal and sectarian politlics.  It is hopelessly choked with the weeds of spiritual jealousy, corruption and moral decay. Sexual perversion of both boys and girls by the older men in the tribe is rampant and guarantees a generation of damaged souls to bring the next generation into the world.  A seeming hopeless scenario.  Only G*d could sort this out.

But the obliqueness of the insult and it's use to begin civil war across the globe, which is what I believe they hoped to do, is fascinating and as a tactic of war....stunningly brilliant.  They miscalculated exactly just how spiritual North Americans are.  On the outside westerners seem to be godless.  This is definitely not true; in fact, most in the west had such a strong religious upbringing (strong as opposed to fanatical) that as adults they go through a rejection of their religion (though not the faith, merely the rituals) which is characterized by nonchalance where matters religious are concerned, non-attendance at services except on high holidays.  To the outsider it might appear godless but in fact, deep down, the faith is usually strong and abiding.  It only takes a threat like Naziism or fascism, in this case Arabian fascism, to call forth the strength of that belief and marshall those who stand for righteousnous and free will.  As Christopher Hitchens said today outside the Danish Embassy in Washington D.C.:

"SOLIDARITY WITH DENMARK!  DEATH TO FASCISM!

no. Turkey no longer seriously aspires to EU membership. The current Turkish government now believes that positioning itself as an oil and gas hub to the emerging pipeline projects in Iraq, Iran, and the Caspian Sea area will force the EU to treat it as a full partner economically without any further mandated interference in its internal affairs, particularly where Cyprus and the Kurds are concerned. Moreover, Europeans have seriously underestimated the effect that championing the cause of Armenians in their press (even to the extent of admitting the Armenian Holocaust) has had in Turkey. The Turks, whose borders to the EU are so porous as to be all but open anyway, prefer now to play a waiting game, pretending to be an honest broker between the West and Islam, while in fact furthering their own interests.

It cannot be stated strongly enough that Turkey's worst nightmare is Kurdish secession. When Turks look to the EU and its acceptance of splinter states like Slovenia and Slovakia, as well as its encouragement of diverse ethnicities such as Catalonia or Wales, it seems to them that such a breakup would be a future inevitability if they were to join the EU in good faith. Thus, the insult to Denmark was coldly calculated for maximum political effect, not in Brussels, but in Riyadh and Tehran.

This just happened recently in the Philippines (in October I believe.)  Three little Christian schoolsgirls with books and lunchpails and braids off to school and BAM!  Beheaded by Muslims and the head of one child left on the walkway of a nearby Baptist Church.  You want to tell me Christians did that?  Buddhists you say?  Never! No, Emeda30, only one so-called 'religion' beheads people and we know which one it is, too, don't we?  Once again, use caution viewing but you owe it to these little babies to look on their innocence and see what brutal-hearted men did to three little girls, merely because they were Christian:

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/three_indonesian_girls_beheaded_images_Oct_30_2005.html

This is from the Islamicthinkers.com website.  They are former Muslims who are now telling the true story.  The pictures are very harsh.  Be forewarned.  Look at the thumbnails before enlarging if you have a weak stomach.  This is what your religion is doing to others.  Killing is the LEAST OF IT!  The bloodlust is incomparable and that's why people are trying to stop them.  They torture babies...these men.  LOOK FOR YOURSELF AND SEE.

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/massacres/index.php

kefaya mafish fayda aslan mayestahloosh el maghood wala the time. mabey7awloosh yefhamoo sibak menhom.

Well - since we in Denmark don't support Turkeys membership of The EU - well how can they be a member. All nations must agree about that. Otherwise - they must be outside our border.

Regarding the muslim issue - It could be interesting to know - how Turkeys leaders regard known Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rusdie...

Hirsi Ali - was interview'et at a meeting in Berlin, where she said (Saturday, 18 February 2006 ):

Today, the open society is challenged by Islamism, ascribed to a man named Muhammad bin Abdullah, who lived in the 7th-century AD and who is regarded as a prophet. Many Muslims are peaceful people; not all are fanatics. As far as I am concerned, they have every right to be faithful to their convictions. But within Islam exists a hard-line Islamist movement that rejects democratic freedoms and wants to destroy them.

I am a dissident. I was born in Somalia , and grew up in Saudi Arabia and Kenya . I used to be faithful to the guidelines laid down by the prophet Muhammad. I used to hold the view that Muhammad was perfect; the only source of, and indeed, the criterion between good and bad. Now I don’t.

I think that the prophet was wrong to have placed himself and his ideas above critical thought. I think that he was wrong to have subordinated women to men. I think he was wrong to have decreed that gays be murdered. I think he was wrong to have said that apostates must be killed.

He was wrong in saying that adulterers should be flogged and stoned, and the hands of thieves should be cut off. He was wrong in claiming that a proper society could be built only on his ideas.

I am not the only dissident in Islam. There are more like me: here in the West, in Teheran, in Doha and Riyadh , in Amman and Cairo , in Khartoum and in Mogadishu , in Lahore and in Kabul .

The dissidents of Islamism, like the dissidents of communism, don’t have nuclear bombs or any such weapons. All we have are our thoughts; and all we ask is a fair chance to express them.

Can Turkey conferm - that they don't support the Muslim, who would support murdering her ?

SAVE KOSOVO

The traitors of Christendom are selling out Kosovo to Islam.

The sell-out of Kosovo is not only a matter of losing Christendom land
to Islam : it is the adamantly clear signal that Europe is pushing
forward in giving up its own identity and historical roots. Europe was
forged in the fight against the muslims : it seems that on the long run
Islam is the winner.

Well...for those of you who weren't sure whether to vote yes, or no to the EU Constitution and Turkey's eventual inclusion...now you have your answer.  "No!"  Turkey without Islam would have been fine.  Any country that is an Islamic State will not be fine. 

Islam's followers' alliegience is first, last and always to Islam...not to their own children--they will gladly blow them up--not to their parents--they will carry suicide bombs--not to their loved ones whoever they may be--all must be sacrificed to Islam's all consuming fires.  Any country which allies with an Islamic country in Islam's eyes (yours don't count) becomes their land...land of Islam....Dar es-salaam. 

It's hard for a westerner to understand this concept but in an Islamic's eyes anywhere they tread becomes theirs.  So....including an 'Islamic' Turkey is not in everyone's best interests at this time.  Thank-you.  NEXT!  JUST SAY 'NO' TO ISLAM!

Because if you don't, it will swallow your business (take a Muslim as a business partner and your business becomes part of Islam in Islam's eyes).  It's not personal either.  It simply IS.

Democracy and Islam could not be more unalike.  Polar opposites.  Democracy expects you to stand on your own two feet.  Islam expects you to ask permission first.

A recipe for going nowhere which Islam enforces in order to maintain face and its 'power'.  Power over zero eventually but it's greedy imams never look at the ever narrowing circle as long as they get their daily dose of grovelling to soothe their fragile egos and total absence of spirituality.

Ah well...pass the cookies....

I don’t think most Muslims support the fanatics you see in the news – but I’m sorry to say – I think many of them still support Islam more them democracy.

…why Muslims remain Europe? Freedom, a future, economic means…

Is there any hope of one developing (and quickly?)
Well I can only tell you about Denmark – here 76% of all ethnic Danes in the working age have a job and 43% non-westerners in the working age have a job. It is harder for an immigrant to get a job - but they usually also have less education and langue skills. Another thing is that not all immigrants want a job as social benefits are quit high in Denmark and they might end up with less money with a job then they get without a job.

Turkey was stable so long as the Army was holding the aces as guardian of Atataturk's Constitution..............but the EU didn't like the military in politics - made them feel uncomfortable about Greece and other countries with a very limited democratic history viz Spain, Portugal, Croatia et al.

So the Islamist government gets the EU to show the red card to the military and what do we get but creeping Islamicisation of Turkey with arms outstreteched to Hamas, films like Valley of The Wolves, books like Mein Kampf on a bestseller list, and Turkish agents fomenting trouble in the Kurdish north of Iraq; not to mention Turkey dabbling in Central Asia and hob-nobbing with Iran and presumably Syria.

So Guenther Verheugen how about pulling down the roof on the whole EU Project which has no foundations but a hell of a lot of load on the roof.

...is why Muslimes remain Europe if they find it so unpleasant? So secular? So insulting to their sensibilities?

Several answers of course and the hopeful one (which may not be accurate) is that many Moslems -- the "silent majority" -- are in fact more secularized than the loud vocal minority of fanatics would lead us to believe. But they are cowed by the radicals. Am I naively optimistic?

There are very few Moslems in Seattle; or at least I don't know any at all. So I have no idea what they are like. (I recently happened upon a group of Islamic women sitting in a deli and one was in total cover and boy was it weird -- like some hidden being...very strange sensation) Anywaay, are there very many (any?) with whom one can have a rational conversation about these issues? Or does it usually end with shrieks about the Prophet's honor etc etc?

I am trying to understand the tenor of daily life in Europe. What sort of contact might there be between, as one example, a native middle-class accountant and Moslems? Is there a "liberal" (in the broadest sense) middle-class secular Moslem population? Is there any hope of one developing (and quickly?)

In Bauchi State, riots were set off last week when a Christian teacher took a Koran away from a Muslim student who was reading it without permission in class, according to Nigerian newspaper accounts. Muslims were incensed because it is considered a desecration to touch the Koran without performing ritual ablutions. Twenty-five people were killed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/24/international/africa/24nigeria.html

What kind of "religion" is this?

Okay, so this is another rule that we in the west can expect to be threatened with death over.

Now, as the Christian south in Nigeria strike back after being butchered and burned alive, we can expect the muslim wails of "victimization" to soon be heard.

But who *always* resorts first to violence in any kind of dispute?  

Oh muslims, listen well. Your "laws" and your 1001 ways to commit desecration thereby sacrificing the right to live only apply in your own countries.

If you originate from a country ignorant enough to establish sharia law... you cannot take it with you when you leave, seeking education, jobs, financial security, and all the comforts of the West.

If you are unhappy about the laws of your adopted western country, THEN LEAVE.

Please leave. We will find a way to pay your expenses. A "Let the Muslims Be Happy" tax, to pay the costs of moving back to your Islamic countries. Entirely voluntary, and absolutely free. I think western people would pay to be rid of you.

I would.  

Turkey??? – why oh why was the Greeks not apple to take Istanbul (Constantinople) in the Greek – Turkeys war! Then there would be no Turkeys foothold in Europe and all debate about membership could be swept off as with Algeria and Morocco.

Use the information that is provided by your adopted western countries to criticize them.

Use the freedoms given you by the civilisations you crawl to, begging to be let in, to critique them and demand the ignorance practised by your native countries.

Use the language of democracy and freedom of expression to try and limit those very gifts to suit your own dogmatic, ignorant intolerance.

Your only allies are the political left, bent on destroying the great culture of Europe out of a warped sense of shame... the multiculturalists. And the PC thought police who consider any nationalistic or native cultural pride as "Nazi."

Times are changing, though. Slowly but surely. This blog's views wouldn't have been permitted a generation ago, when everyone was told to "be ashamed." Those hippie time warped 1968'ers are losing it fast.

Systems self-correct, balance out eventually. Then YOU LOSE, MUSLIM.

People already say no to Turkey; except the European Union is playing the deaf card.
Democracy is not a main principle of the EU; unless it suits them.
The European constitution isnt dead; it just went underground to resurface later on.
Its like the UN; formerly a Western Bastion...today an anti-Western Bastion..not for nothing I nicknamed it the United Nazis..

Well I just want to say thank you to the Turkish government for proving what most of us has known for a long time: they are very far from being worthy of an EU membership as they haven’t got a clue about basic rights of freedom.
It is time for the Danish government to make a final statement which says: THERE WILL BE NO APOLOGIES. And then cut off all diplomatic and financial ties to those countries who still want to impose their Dark Age religion upon us.

This is exactly what specialists claim: use of the "extreme" moslims to create troubles and then use the "moderate" moslims to obtain what the "extreme" claimed from the beginning.

Are there no more intelligent politicians in Europe available to understand that strategy as they all want to "submit" to Islam (=submission)? Why is it only the extreme-right that dare to fight this submission? Is it already too late?

Turkey politics are newer going to be member of the EU. I don't think the people in France, UK and Denmark will wote for their membership - by saying no to the new EU Union, and deny Turkey any membership of the EU.

80% of the Danes, are behind our Danish government. The Danish government wil under no circumstances apologize for Jyllands Posten's publications of some drawings.

"does not exactly make them more qualified to be mediators"

which is why one usually asks a *neutral* party to perform that function.