Blackout: Violence in France

From the desk of Tiberge on Sat, 2009-07-18 10:20

The French Interior Ministry has issued orders to the prefects not to communicate to the media the crime statistics for the nights of July 13-15. The cartoon at the top shows Marianne, the woman symbolizing the French Republic, watching the "official" weather report, “More sun tomorrow” it says, as it pours outside. Le Monde has a long article about the news blackout:

[...] Only the figures for the night of July 13-14 were published: "Some 500 vehicles" were burned, the worst ever recorded for the eve of the national holiday. Despite repeated requests to the Interior Ministry, and the DGPN [similar to the FBI], no figures were forthcoming for the night of July 14-15. These orders have been strictly applied. The different prefectures contacted by Le Monde refused to respond, citing "ministerial instructions." Regional news media reported the same problem. The daily La Provence issued an unofficial report that was much less favorable than 2008: 41 cars and a day-care center in Marseilles burned. […]

Other local papers describe the same problems. In Reims, the daily L'Union denounces the attitude of the authorities: "Yesterday morning, every journalist who came, even for the smallest piece of news, to the firemen, or gendarmes or police, heard the same answer: 'No fires'. In fact, the truth is quite different. Some of those we questioned admitted under their breath: 'We cannot say anything about the fires. We have received orders." In Lyons, the daily Le Progrès reports the same blackout: "Orders not to speak on the radio were given to firemen, gendarmes and police."

In previous years the radio network Europe 1 had systematically called the prefectures to verify the official counts. On January 1, 2008, the DGPN reported 372 burnt cars for New Year's Eve vs 746 reported by Europe 1. Finally the ministry of the interior admitted that there had been 878 fires. "Instructions" given to the prefectures henceforth forbid this type of verification.

Some bits of news have leaked through. An article at the conservative blog François Desouche (based on a report in the newspaper Le Parisien) describes the use of firecrackers against the police, in the suburb of Tremblay-en-France, department of Seine-Saint-Denis. This was the second time in a few weeks that police on patrol were drawn to a group of youths. Masked by their clothing they threw firecrackers and rocks at the police.

Also, in the city of Evry, four or five large packs of firecrackers were stolen by a group of hooded individuals who broke into the fair grounds thanks to the inadequate number of guards. Agnès Moutet-Lamy, the spokesman for the Socialist mayor made light of the event: "That can always happen. There's nothing to worry about." However, Jean-Charles Béraud, an expert in pyrotechnics, stated that firecrackers "can become a monstrously dangerous weapon. A mortar can be propelled 120 meters and create an explosion 80 meters in diameter. It can kill someone. Even one large firecracker can rip apart a hand."

Using the daily La Provence as its source, another article at François Desouche relates the violence in Marseilles on the night of July 14: A fire ravaged 5 hectares close to residences.
Two helicopters pouring water on the fire and a fierce battle waged by the marine firemen were needed to bring the fire under control. A day-care center was partially burned. A row of cypress trees bordering a nursery school went up in smoke. One individual was arrested as he threw rockets on the marine firemen who had come to put out a trash can fire. Fires were set in the four corners of one neighborhood, while trash cans and cars burned in others, notably with the help of Molotov cocktails. While the firemen went on one call after the other, the police fell into what appears to be an ambush. Bullets were fired at them and diverse projectiles were thrown in their direction. One policeman was slightly injured by a rock. The anti-crime brigade arrested one individual in possession of a 22-caliber rifle.

 

france-weatherforecast.jpg

Relevance (3)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-07-22 03:54.

"I have not had any serious non-academic job" - Amartya Sen.

 

I'd say that's an extremely relevant admission by Sen and one not to be ignored when attempting to make any sense out of Sen's utterly senseless utterances.

Relevance (2)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 18:27.

Isn't that the same Amartya Sen who appeared in the programme "Conversations with History" in which Amartya Sen is asked a series of questions by the programme host, Harry Kreisler, and Sen answers those questions without resorting to arrogant obfuscation? Which begs the question, if your hero Sen can do that, why can't you? Why is HE able to answer questions and YOU can't?

Youths will be youths...

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 15:30.

"Fourteen and 15 year old boys are given so much power, which I am sorry to say they have abused." He said. "These kids do anything they please- forcing people to empty out their wallets, taking whatever they want from stores without paying, and touching young women  inappropriately..."

 

No, this isn't a report about  "youths" in France...

 

(Come on, kappert, ask me what's the relevance of this post, I dare you).

 

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=69720

 

 

relevance

Submitted by kappert on Mon, 2009-07-20 16:46.

Have a look at Amartya Sen's 'Identity and Violence' and you may answer your jpost article as well as on the situation of young people in Europe.

Further obfuscation (2)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 14:42.

Fine. Give me YOUR views on that subject also. What you like and what you hate and we'll take things from there. Alternatively, just answer the original question.

Run up the white flag...

Submitted by KO on Mon, 2009-07-20 14:32.

or declare martial law, followed by prosecutions and deportations. Instead Sarkozy will probably deliver soothing and stern words. What a disgrace!

@KO

Submitted by kappert on Mon, 2009-07-20 14:38.

Where do you want to deport French citizens? Martinique, Guyane, Tahiti?

@kappert

Submitted by KO on Mon, 2009-07-20 18:35.

Place of birth, or if born in France, place of either parent's birth. Legal citizenship can be legally revoked.

pure poetry

Submitted by kappert on Mon, 2009-07-20 13:32.

Many youngsters were still in their pampers when Ryad Hamlaoui was killed, I wonder if they remember him at all. The point is that the situation in Lille (and other banlieu-shattered cities) did not improve over the last decade, and that enhanced repressive measures seem to dominate police activity. The article in ouest-france.fr outlines clearly the lack of integration of a big part of French teenage population. That is something much more worrying than Bastille Day, 1st of May, or the Orange March, where we may encounter youngsters interested in kick-boxing. For atlanticist911: Huius mundi filius sum, qui totum mundum incolit ac civem se arbitratur utique. Non homo captus et stupens, qui numquam trans saepes suas prospicit.

Nitty gritty (3)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 11:58.

@ kappert

Cupid's Got A Gun

 

That old bow and arrow just wasn't strong enough

Cupid wasn't stupid, he knew just what to do...

 

(Chorus)

 

Cupid's got a gun

Arrows wouldn't do...

 

Don't try to run

Cupid's got a gun.

Nitty gritty (2)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 11:31.

I'm not interested in learning about your personal taste in music, or lack thereof, I'm much more interested in learning about which aspects of European culture you do NOT hate and what YOU mean by the term "European culture". But as per usual you avoid these questions, obfuscate, then  turn tao and run, demonstrating to the world what a  pathetic creature you are.

Banlieu violence

Submitted by kappert on Mon, 2009-07-20 11:03.

UN Code of Firearms: 'They may use …. only if …' That is as peacefully the United Nations may possibly go. A shot in the neck is outlawed by this code. Describing violence in the suburbs as a 'tradition' does not address the causes. Instead of being worried how to put these youngsters into jail, one should investigate how the spatial and social segregation caused this mess, resulting in violence and destruction. A reaction with more violence does not resolve or even soothe the problem. When citizens break the state's monopoly on violence and form armed militias, I doubt very much that this measure will return law and order to the banlieues. I'm unaware of International Brigades in Lille. Atlanticist: Nitty Gritty: great music!

It's just an excuse

Submitted by Thomas Landen on Mon, 2009-07-20 11:50.

The policeman involved in the 2000 incident was punished according to French law and sentenced to three years. Despite this, however, according to Kappert, the 2000 incident is the excuse Muslim thugs use to vandalize French cities nine years later.
It makes me think of the lyrics of a song I recently heard:

It’s just an excuse
To shift the blame
To take the spotlight off their shortcomings
Which are considerable

It’s just an excuse
To shift the blame
To the Jews, those Zionists!
To the Americans, those Imperialists
And then to the rest of the world

It’s just an excuse
To draw a veil
Over Muslim ambition of world domination
Is that, pray, what Jihad really means?

Are you ready to submit?

Do you value your freedom?
Do you think that it came for free?
Did it not come
At such a great cost
And how many lives
Do you think were lost?

If it was right to fight then
Why not now?

In a 1400 year holy war
A never-ending crusade, now
Immigration on boats and trains
On foot and roads and planes

Free people wake up before it’s too late
You’re tolerating intolerance
It stands at your gate
The madness at Munich could look like a picnic
Remember Hitler and Chamberlain and worthless agreement

Do you value your freedom?
Do you think that it came for free?
Did it not come
At such a great cost
And how many lives
Do you think were lost?

If it was right to fight then
Why not now?

@kappert

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Mon, 2009-07-20 03:32.

When a police officer uses deadly force disproportionately in the line of duty, citizens are expected to pursue justice through the proper channels. Additionally, Western law enforcement organisations are regulated by themselves and by independent organisations. Essentially, the mechanisms to redress an injustice committed by law enforcement personnel are extensive.

 

Do you believe that random violence and destruction of property is a correct or effective response? If so, then are other French citizens permitted to break the state's monopoly on violence, form armed militias and return law and order to the banileues? Are international brigades allowed to lend a "helping hand? Again if so, where do I sign up?

 

 

Nitty gritty

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Mon, 2009-07-20 00:17.

In a previous thread Kappert argued that she believed all 'conflict resolution' should be orchestrated through the good offices of the UN, but she doesn't really believe that any more than I do (albeit for different reasons) and here's why.

RE: The Riad Hamlaoui Case.

The UN Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officilals, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1979, emphasises the exceptional nature of the use of force, stating in Article 3 that FORCE MAY BE USED "...only WHEN STRICTLY NECESSARY and to the extent required for the performance of their duty". More detailed guidelines are set out in the UN Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials adopted by the Eigth UN Congress on Prevention of Crime and the Treatment of Offenders on 7 September 1990. Principle 4 states that law enforcement officials "...shall, AS FAR AS POSSIBLE, apply non-violent means BEFORE RESORTING TO USE OF FORCE AND FIREARMS. THEY MAY USE force and FIREARMS only IF OTHER MEANS REMAIN INEFFECTIVE OR WITHOUT ANY PROMISE OF ACHIEVING THE INTENDED RESULT".

(Emphasis added).

Kappert: Prove me wrong by telling me that YOU are OK with that.

enricher death

Submitted by 4Symbols on Sun, 2009-07-19 15:33.

Thomas Landen said,

"What is the relevance of this 2000 event for the events today?"

As far as I know the excuse for these Jihadist riots are because of the death of an enricher in a police cell and a malfunctioning surveillance camera in the place of detention.

@4Symbols: Violence is a tradition

Submitted by Thomas Landen on Mon, 2009-07-20 08:11.

The violence on the eve of Bastille Day had nothing to do with the death of an "enricher" in a police cell earlier that week. The Bastille Day violence is an annual "tradition". It shows the natives who is boss today in France.

Lille incidents

Submitted by kappert on Sat, 2009-07-18 18:45.

Sixteen cars were burnt and 70 young people arrested in the sprawling housing estates of Lille-Sud last Monday night after the shooting at point-blank range of Ryad Hamlaoui, 23. Police union leaders alleged yesterday that the violence in Lille on Monday - at the end of 24 hours of relative calm after the killing - was the work of politically motivated provocateurs from outside the area. The death of Mr Hamlaoui, who was unarmed and had never been in trouble with the police, follows a peaceful winter in the French banlieues. The public prosecutor for the Lille area, Claude Mathon, insisted that the murder investigation was justified by the facts. "The policeman shot him in the neck from close range. If you do that, you can be said to have homicidal intentions. As far as I know, the head is a vital organ." (Le Monde)

Lille incidents

Submitted by Thomas Landen on Sat, 2009-07-18 21:12.

The incident Kappert refers to dates from 2000.

AI INDEX: EUR 21/04/00
July 2000
FRANCE: THE FATAL SHOOTING OF RIAD HAMLAOUI BY A LILLE POLICE OFFICER
Amnesty International is concerned about the fatal shooting of Riad Hamlaoui by a police officer in Lille (Nord) on the night of 15-16 April 2000.

Hamlaoui was one of two men inside a stolen car. The policeman who shot him said he had done so in a panic. The policeman was later sentenced to three years in jail and was thrown from the police force.

What is the relevance of this 2000 event for the events today?

 

Lille incidents

Submitted by kappert on Sun, 2009-07-19 16:23.

The confrontation police authority vs youth is growing for more than a decade. The article 'Police et jeunes: tensions à la veille du 14-Juillet' (http://www.ouest-france.fr) reveals how easily an accident like the Riad Hamlaoui incident may happen.

Paganini v. kappert

Submitted by KO on Sat, 2009-07-18 20:28.

Paganini's approach to the situation is 99% more likely than kappert's to exact a penalty from the malefactor for the breach of civil order and the crime against property. It is also an investment in the maintenance of civil order.

kappert's approach is consistent with the citizen's total delegation of self-defense, the defense of property, and the maintenance of civil order to paid employees of the government. kappert's approach is likely to leave the malefactor undeterred and unpunished and to pass the costs of the property destruction on to other policyholders. Although kappert's citizen has a right to demand that crimes be prevented and punished in return for his tax dollars, and to demand an insurance payment for the damage to his vehicle, his refusal to make more than a financial investment in civil order makes the disappearance of the civil order more likely.

The point is that, as a practical matter, responsibility for civil order is non-delegable.

Contradiction

Submitted by atheling on Sat, 2009-07-18 19:26.

"The policeman shot him in the neck from close range. If you do that, you can be said to have homicidal intentions. As far as I know, the head is a vital organ." (Le Monde)

Well, kappert proves that wrong.

Taqqiya

Submitted by Frank Lee on Sat, 2009-07-18 18:11.

Who knew the Muslims could learn a thing or two from the French about taqqiya?  When the elites and the culture at large politely turn a blind eye to strategic dishonesty from the government and other elites, you've sunk to a pre-Enlightenment level -- the level of the Arab world, in short.

no guts no glory

Submitted by Paganini on Sat, 2009-07-18 10:45.

I can't understand this: if I saw someone burning my my car I would shoot his brains out. The real problem is not those 'youths' who can easely be expelled from the country, but the frenchmen themselves, they don't fight back, they just take it all in the face, proud of not being 'racist' probably, I don't know. Ofcourse the leaders of France reflect the majority of their their civilians: cowards.

I don't want to offend people, because I adore France and French culture, but I experience it on a daily basis: this cowardnes of people that don't fight back, they don't even get angry against politicians or police.

Paganini's guts

Submitted by kappert on Sat, 2009-07-18 16:30.

"if I saw someone burning my my car I would shoot his brains out" - well, other peolple with less guts than Paganini would inform their insurance company and, consequently, would not spent some years in prison for murder. But, please, go ahead Paganini!