Rage Over Benign Comments
From the desk of Tiberge on Tue, 2009-03-24 09:44
The French Catholic websites have been flooded with articles and commentaries on two of Pope Benedict's recent actions: first, the lifting of the excommunication on the four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), an event that has been widely reported in the English-speaking press, and more recently the remark made by the Pope concerning the inefficiency of contraceptives in the fight against AIDS in Africa.
There is interesting commentary on the Williamson affair from a reader of Lawrence Auster's VFR, with a link in the first sentence to a previous article, also at VFR. I am hardly qualified to talk about this matter, but I remember reading about the SSPX a year or so ago at French websites and have no problem with the lifting of the excommunication, despite the obnoxious Bishop.
The hue and cry over the remark on contraceptives is puzzling to me because it is not totalitarian or in any way repressive. It does not condemn contraception (even if that is part of Church doctrine) but simply states that contraception alone will not solve the problem of AIDS, and in fact aggravates it. (Le Salon Beige has posted some information, here and here, on the worsening of a disease once a "cure" is found. I will try to get to that later, but you can easily guess that if people think they are "safe" from a disease, they will redouble their indulgence in the behavior that caused the disease in the first place.)
I see nothing extreme or fanatical in the Pope's observation. I see nothing that would generate the kind of tsunami of invectives and mockery that has been unleashed in Europe in the wake of his statement.
Nouvel Observateur (a left-wing paper) reports on a recent IFOP poll (made by phone to 620 Catholics) showing that 43% of French Catholics would like the Pope to resign or retire! Who are these Catholics? Are they the thousands who came out en masse last summer to hear him say Mass at Notre-Dame Cathedral? Then the article says that the figure is even greater for "non-practicing" Catholics (47%), but decreases among the "practicing Catholics" (31%). It goes on:
A great majority of the French people also believe that the Catholic Church should "modify its statements and its positions to take into account changes that have occurred in society and its mores," notably on contraception. The IFOP poll shows that 85% wish the Church would modify its position on contraception, 83% wish it would do the same on abortion! 77% on the remarriage of divorced persons and 69% on homosexuality.
I am not Catholic, but I know that if the Church caved in to its critics on these non-negotiable issues, it would no longer be the Catholic Church. The article then moves on to another poll by CSA made by phone to 1,012 persons:
It revealed that 29% of Catholics have a good opinion of Benedict XVI and 55% have a bad opinion. But among the practicing Catholics, 52% are positive towards him and 28% negative. Among the French in general, Catholic or not, 57% have a bad opinion, a figure that doubled since September 2008.
Enough of polls. Does this really mean anything? Is there a campaign to discredit and even bring down the Church? The well-known positions of the Church on moral issues are hardly cause for outbursts of anger or calls for resignation. The Church cannot contravene these positions. On the other hand, it might consider modifying Vatican II, a drastic deviation that transformed the Church into a liberal, left-leaning entity, at odds with its basic mission, since it extended "equality" to ideologies such as Islam that threaten the very existence of the Church. I do not say this because I have an axe to grind against the Church, but because the survival of European civilization is at stake.
Here is Louis Chagnon writing at Bernard Antony's blog:
This time the motivation [for the controversy] is the statement on the use of contraceptives in Africa: "The distribution of contraceptives does not allow us to move on past the problem of AIDS, it aggravates the problem." At once, like bolts of lightening, the fanatical do-gooders of the "copulation internationale" swooped down on the Bishop of Rome, whose remarks are merely a reflection of Church principles in the fight against AIDS: abstinence and marital fidelity. Abstinence and marital fidelity are far from being the norm in Africa as anyone aware of the mores there knows. Moreover these principles are only indications that any Christian can follow or not according to his conscience.
It is nonetheless surreal to observe how not one of these "progressives" raises a voice against Islam, that favors a hundred whip lashes for unmarried persons who have sexual relations outside of marriage, and the stoning of adulterers. It is true that the whip and the stone are certainly more effective that contraceptives in fighting AIDS. Our "copulatory addicts" were hardly phased when a 75-year-old woman was recently condemned to 40 whip lashes and four months in prison by the Saudi religious police for having in her home two young men, not directly related to her family, who ran errands for her. If the whip and the stone are favored by our Islamophile media, can we expect to see "contraceptive-phobia" declared a crime in France in the near future? At any rate, if there were a contraceptive against intellectual dishonesty, many of our so-called elitists would have their head in a condom!
There are numerous articles on this topic, even one at Le Salon Beige purporting to show that the policy of the Vatican on contraceptives is not nearly as censorious or intransigent as people often think. A tsunami (another one!) of angry comments from devout Catholic readers quashes this theory utterly. I'll try to get to it, time permitting. In the meantime, suffice it to say that Benedict XVI recently returned from a successful tour of Africa that has reactivated much debate and religious fervor at the French Catholic websites.
Before I close this post, just a quick look at what transpired this Sunday, March 22, at Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris. Le Parisien reports:
The confrontation was explosive. Clashes erupted on Sunday, a little before noon, between young people presenting themselves as Catholics and activists ["militants"] of the Green and Communist parties. The latter intended to distribute condoms and tracts denouncing the recent remarks of the Pope:
"You cannot resolve the problem of AIDS with contraceptives. On the contrary, their use aggravates the problem," Benedict XVI had declared on Tuesday.
The Greens and Communists had scarcely arrived at the very symbolic John-Paul II Square in front of Notre-Dame, than the insults began flying from the young extremists, some of whom were dressed in fatigues. The verbal assault quickly degenerated into a fight, with two wounded members of the Green Party being taken to the hospital. They said they would file a complaint.
The tension increased with the arrival of demonstrators from Act Up, around 12:30. Greeted by a volley of insults, eggs and bags filled with water, they sprawled out on the ground that was strewn with tracts and condoms. Additional police arrived and formed a veritable barricade between the organization that fights AIDS [this would be Act Up] and the young "Catholics". According to our sources, there were several arrests. Calm was restored around 1:00 p.m.
But there is another factor. It appears that the Front National may have gotten involved in a way that was detrimental to the cause of the Catholic demonstrators who say they just wanted to pray in front of the cathedral. François Desouche reports (with videos):
The Communist Party had announced its intentions: the Pope's remarks cannot be allowed. To show their opposition, elected officials and sympathizers organized a distribution of condoms at a highly symbolic site: the terrace in front of Notre-Dame, known as John-Paul II Square.
This initiative did not find favor among young Catholics who wrote in their Facebook page "Leave my Pope alone" ["touche pas à mon pape"]. Except that members of the Front National joined in the protest and began to have it out with those distributing condoms. To Europe 1 Radio, Florian, one of the Catholics, did not hide his annoyance: "Facebook is a free media site. Anybody can see what you write there. We did not want people from the Front National to come. We simply wanted to pray". A young man calling himself "Catholic" hit a demonstrator from Act Up in the face, while she was talking to France Info News.
Technically, it became difficult to pray, once Act Up joined in the demonstration. Sprawled out on the terrace [photo below] of the cathedral which was closed as a precautionary measure, they demonstrated by whistling. The police came and attempted to separate everybody. The leader of the Communists, Ian Brossat, refused to admit defeat: to Europe 1 Radio he declared that he would continue distributing condoms... "a little further on."
Did the FN interfere deliberately, or are the Catholics embarrassed by the presence of the party of JMLP? Or is there more to this crazy story?
As of now there are 229 comments at FDS, as well as two Daily Motion videos, easily understandable even if you do not know French.
I must end this post. New developments of importance will be reported on later.
Rage # 3
Submitted by marcfrans on Thu, 2009-03-26 17:39.
@ Kapitein A
1) Obviously any leader of any organisation is concerned about its membership. That does not make the pope a "politician". He is certainly not an elected democratic politician, and neither does he possess coercive temporal powers that 'politicians' (and tyrants) in nondemocratic authoritarian political systems exercise . "Politicians" are about (legislative, executive, and judicial) state power in the temporal world. However, besides this purely semantic point of him (not) being a "politician", the deeper issue is whether one accepts or believes in the religious/spiritual guidance function of the pope, or not. My point was that your earlier comments on the pope are reflective of a media-view of his role which is at odds with the pope's own stated view (or the RCC's official view) of his role. If one disagrees about the proper function of the pope, it becomes very easy to differ about the meaning (motivation) of his actions. I am inclined to say: either ignore the pope, or take him at his word, but beware of parroting media bias.
2) The theology of "just war" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of whether abstinence and marital fidelity could put a dent in aids. I was not making a 'normative' point, but a practical 'positive' one. You are simply denying the obvious that abstinence and marital fidelity, in and of themselves, WOULD help in reducing the incidence of aids. But, then, a lot of other politically-correct opinions in the media are variants of 'denying the obvious' (i.e. in conflict with common sense).
3) True, bureaucracies are "not keen on collapse". The relevant question is whether the pope sees the RCC purely as a "bureaucracy". If he doesn't, that means that his calculations and motivations will be very different from yours. You better allow for that possibility, which means that you should hold your view with less 'certainty'.
4) We are not living in the time of Karl Der Grosse (Karel de Grote, Charlemagne for nonGermans). We are living in the time of Ratzinger/Benedict and Osama Bin Laden. Indirectly claiming, as you did, that catholicism can only thrive and survive if catholics are willing to kill nonbelievers "in its (Catholicism's) name" is a very bad example of moral relativism (and of poor contemporary empirical observation too). The clear signs of absurd leftist media bias are there for all to see....
P.S. When you are telling Armor that "promiscuity cannot be dented by appealing to religious values" you are again denying the obvious. You are essentially saying that people are not motivated by "values" at all. Well yes, many are not. But also, many are. The purpose of teaching 'right from wrong' is not to achieve perfection nor perfect or full adherence. The purpose is to teach....right from wrong. The moral responsibility rests and remains with every individual for himself/herself.
As in the case of your 'neutrality' addiction, the root problem here is the absurd moral relativism that is afflicting contemporary Western elites.
In Reply to Armor and marcfrans
Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Thu, 2009-03-26 05:50.
Armor:
Promiscuity can neither be dented by appealing to religious values, nor made salient by the availability of contraception. Not only are promiscuous people seemingly unconcerned at the explosion of infections and unplanned pregnancies, but even if contraception was a 'green light' to fulfilling their desires, we can assume that its existence would not need to be publicized for them to take advantage of it.
Whereas Western governments and NGOs are tackling the temporal problems of infection and pregnancy, the Bishop of Rome is taking on the moral problem of extra-marital sex. But both efforts are marching to folly. The wrong conclusions are being drawn; the right question to be asked is why people would put themselves at physical and emotional hazard despite being more informed of consequences and alternatives, and having more choice than any other previous generation? This is not to single out according to age, but stupidity or lack of knowledge or guidance are no longer excuses.
marcfrans:
I. The Pope is a politician. This does not necessarily mean that he must bend to the popular moods of the Catholic communion. However, he is more cognizant of maintaining and expanding its membership, and also of deepening relationships between churches and churchgoers, than say the British monarchy, which can remain traditional at its leisure and incidentally has none of the Pope's executive power.
II. Following your logic, it is quite reasonable to invoke 'thou shalt not kill' during a war. Is the onus not then on the soldiers to take heed of this prescription? Has the prescriber reasonably worked to end the hostilities?
III. Yes and no. One could argue that Roman Catholicism survives even if it is practiced by a small band of true believers. However, the Church is equally a temporal organization that has perpetuated itself over the centuries, and like any bureaucracy is not keen on collapse. Augustine appreciated this dilemma with reference to the 'visible' and 'invisible' Churches.
IV. Far from bin Laden, I was thinking of Clovis, Karl der Grosse and von Tilly. I was thinking of Tolbiac, Paderborn and Magdeburg.
Rage # 2
Submitted by marcfrans on Wed, 2009-03-25 22:54.
@ Kapitein Andre
1) Your first paragraph is very cryptic. You seem to think that the pope should be a politician and that his role is one of engaging in a popularity contest. Worse, by juxtaposing a presumed "right Pope" with another "choice...(as a) conservative move" you appear to parrot liberal media bias.
2) Armor has already given a sensible response to your second point, but he was too mild. Your claim that abstinence and marital fidelity "simply do not work" (in denting aids) got it backwards or is plainly wrong. If they were actually practiced or adhered to, they would "work" (in terms of denting aids). What you mean to (or should) say is that, as a prescription, they are too hard to follow or practice in too many instances.
3) Yes the data are "skewed", but the more relevant question is whether these data have any relevance, for the pope or for anybody else.
4) Your fourth paragraph is highly cynical, but what is its relevance in the context of this "rage over benign comments" (of the pope) ? What are you trying to say? That catholics should kill the pope's critics for catholicism to survive and thrive? You seem to think that there is a moral equivalence between the pope and Osama Bin Laden. The liberal media in Europe and elsewhere appear to have left their mark.....
Spreading Aids
Submitted by Armor on Wed, 2009-03-25 07:00.
" to suggest that contraception actually spreads AIDS "
I think the idea is probably that public campaigns to encourage the use of condoms tend to encourage irresponsibility and discourage abstinence and conjugal fidelity. In Europe, that kind of campaign is usually an encouragement to promiscuity. Some people will take more risks than they should, as if condoms could give perfect protection.
Journalists would have us believe that the Pope said the Aids virus is more dangerous when a condom is used, but that is not what he meant.
RE: "Rage Over Benign Comments"
Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Wed, 2009-03-25 05:47.
1. The lifting of the excommunication was part and parcel of the "numbers game" that the Vatican is playing to maintain and even expand its base. However, whereas John Paul was the right Pope for his time, the choice of Benedict was a conservative move; and irrespective of membership numbers, the SSPX is also traditionalist. Countering the liberalism of Western European and North American churches (not to mention the socialism of Latin American clergy) is merely a short-term goal; clearly, the Vatican has decided that deepening relations between the Church and church-goers is preferably to accommodating agnostic/atheistic sensitivities.
2. If contraception has failed to dent AIDS, then abstinence/marital fidelity has even more so. They simply do not work. It is misleading for the Pope to blame contraception, when in fact there are multiple and ongoing efforts in Africa. It is irresponsible for him to suggest that contraception actually spreads AIDS. On a personal note, I am not fully convinced of the link between HIV and AIDS, that HIV/AIDS is a true virus, or that the symptoms of AIDS are acquired via intercourse, etc.
3. These "non-practicing" Catholics obviously include agnostics and atheists, skewing the data.
4. Catholicism survived and thrived in the face of numerous threats in part due to the propensity for self-declared "Catholics" to kill in its name. Martyrs do not keep religion alive; the living do. And victors of sectarian conflict do not respect the beliefs of the defeated; they stamp them out.
There is no aids virus.
Submitted by Uwe Hayek on Tue, 2009-03-24 11:54.
What Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, has been saying al along,
in this interview,
turns out to be absolutely true.
The original "publication" of the research on "hiv" or as it was then called, htlv I,II, III, was a fraud.
The research papers, the communication between the departments, show that there was no sign of a virus.
Document jpg
Click here for :
More evidence of the hiv fraud
Hiv-aids is a belief system, there is no science involved whatsoever.
Uwe Hayek.