No Flowers for 9/11 Victims, Stones Thrown at Buses

From the desk of Paul Belien on Fri, 2008-09-12 11:25

Yesterday evening youths in Kuregem, an immigrant neighbourhood of Brussels, threw stones at buses of the Flemish public transport company De Lijn. No passengers got hurt though the buses, heading for Flanders, the Dutch-speaking area surrounding Brussels, were damaged and windows were shattered. The youths were said to be angry because earlier in the day Flemish politicians had tried to hold a vigil for the victims of the 2001 9/11 attacks in Manhattan.

Yesterday morning about 100 people gathered at the WTC buildings in Brussels to each lay down flowers in remembrance of the 9/11 victims. The participants were members of the Vlaams Belang party, which strives for the independence of Flanders from Belgium and also wants to halt Muslim immigration. After Filip Dewinter, a VB leader, laid down his flowers, the Brussels police intervened and stopped the ceremony.

Last week Freddy Thielemans, the Socialist Mayor of Brussels, had prohibited the 9/11 demonstration near the Brussels WTC towers. Mr Thielemans banned the demo arguing that the Brussels WTC towers are situated near an immigrant neighbourhood and that it is inappropriate to hold such a demonstration during Ramadan. An appeal against the Mayor’s ban was rejected by the Council of State, Belgium’s highest administrative court. Last year, Mr Thielemans also banned a demonstration in remembrance of the 9/11 atrocities. When the demonstration went ahead anyway, the police savagely beat up the demonstrators and arrested most of them, including Mario Borghezio, an Italian MEP (member of the European Parliament) for the Lega Nord. Mr Borghezio’s arrest led to an official complaint from the Italian government and to Belgium formally apologizing and assuring that in future it will do “everything possible to guarantee the immunity of MEPs.”

During yesterday’s demonstration two female VB secretaries and one VB member who tried to follow Dewinter’s example and lay down flowers were arrested and had to spend the remainder of the day in a police cell. The secretaries later lodged a complaint against the police for sexual harassment. MEP Mario Borghezio was not arrested, though he heckled the Brussels police and shouted, according to the Belgian press, “Islamists are parasites.”

Filip Dewinter said that the arguments of the Mayor to ban the vigil are “the clearest proof of the growing Islamization of Brussels and other major European cities.” He also criticized the decision to ban the public remembrance of the 9/11 victims while the Mayor had earlier allowed a demonstration of so-called “truth activists” who claim that the American government was behind the 9/11 terror attacks. Last Sunday some 400 “truth activists,” many of them members of the anti-American organisation ATTAC, marched from the European Union headquarters to the American embassy in Brussels.

In the coming weeks Vlaams Belang intends to distribute 100,000 leaflets in Brussels protesting the islamization of the city. “Many Muslims do not want to assimilate and are unwilling to accept Western democratic values,” it says. “Brussels is a hub of extremist Islamic groups. We have to break the taboo on Islamic extremism, imposed by the multicultural society.” By 2020 three quarters of the inhabitants of Brussels are expected to be of non-Belgian origin. According to recent estimates Belgium (pop. 10.5 million) has almost 630,000 Muslim inhabitants, which is 6% of the population. In Flanders the Muslims constitute 3.9%, in Wallonia (the French-speaking part of Belgium) 4%, and in Brussels 25.5%.

Political Lynching

Meanwhile, the Belgian authorities are continuing their efforts to thwart Vlaams Belang by stripping Frank Vanhecke, the leader of the VB in the European Parliament, of his political rights so that the popular Mr Vanhecke will not be able to stand for election during the European elections in June 2009. Jo Vandeurzen, the Belgian minister of Justice, has asked the European Parliament to lift the parliamentary immunity of Mr Vanhecke to allow Belgium to prosecute and sentence the politician.

Mr Vandeurzen, a Christian-Democrat, wants to bring Mr Vanhecke to court on charges of racism. The Belgian authorities hold Mr Vanhecke responsible for the publication of a text in a local party publication in the town of Sint-Niklaas. The author had blamed a wave of vandalism at a Christian cemetery on immigrant youths. As the culprits were minors, Belgian law prohibits disclosing their identity, thereby preventing the VB to prove beyond doubt whether or not the youthful vandals were, indeed, Muslim immigrants. Though the author of the text is known and is NOT being prosecuted, Mr Vanhecke is, even though he had not written the article, nor seen it before it was published. The authorities hold him responsible for the article since he was the national VB leader at the time of publication.

The European Parliament’s Committee on Legal Affairs is currently discussing whether or not to lift Mr Vanhecke parliamentary immunity. On Monday Guido Naets, the former spokesman of the European Parliament, asked the Committee to turn down the Belgian request. Mr Naets pointed out that Vlaams Belang is a Flemish-secessionist party which aims for the independence of Flanders from Belgium. He declared that this, and not racism, is the real reason why the Belgian authorities want to thwart the party by banning Mr Vanhecke from standing in the coming European elections. “In the almost 30 years that I have known Frank Vanhecke [...] I have never been able to catch him out on any form of racism whatsoever,” Mr Naets said. “Vanhecke will be prosecuted because he is a symbol for a party that wants to abolish Belgium. For all these reasons I beg the European Parliament, beginning with this Commission not to become an accessory to a political lynching and an attempted smear attack of a radical Flemish party, in which racism is being used as a cheap excuse.”

Migrant criminality meant to get infidel tax prescribed in quran

Submitted by Miriam on Tue, 2008-09-16 01:30.

"Infidel tax" everyone is paying to the islamic criminals!!

Almost no one is left untouched from the trap of ""Infidel tax" if you think about it!

"Infidel tax" everyone (including those in the West) is paying to the islamic criminals - some 20-25 bil to the pakki barbaric fascists, 3 bil every year to the egyptians, 60 bil to the afghans, WFP aid to somali pirates holding several Western ships, and so on!!

Indians are paying much more than that in terms of gifts and grants to Kashmir savage islamic sectarian gangsters and other mobsters in the rest of India as mecca subsidies, education quotas on top of reservation, carrying the economic and criminal burden of 140+ mil savage islamic communalists year after year with no help from pakkis or U.N, etc etc.

Mr Belien is right as he realizes impact of islamofascism!

Submitted by Miriam on Mon, 2008-09-15 01:35.

Again this week, there was serial bomb blasts in India; this time in Delhi. Such blasts have been at a heavy human cost besides economic, political and social costs. Communal harmony is not served.

This sort of stone throwing (at buses in Belgium) is very, very common in India where I travel to very often from USA. MORE SERIOUS IS THE SERIAL BOMB BLASTS IN INDIA.

In the recent weeks town after town has witnessed them - acts of savage serial mass murders with no end in sight. The government is too weak and the secular public are most vulnerable being under constant threat of savage islamic violence month after month over several **centuries** - not decades or years.

Read this:
--------------------------
"The major anti-Hindu riots occurred in Kohat in NWFP, India in 1924. In three days
(September 9 -11) of riots over 155 Hindus and Sikhs were killed.
Entire population of Hindus and Sikhs living there had to flee for life . Gandhiji
undertook 21 days fast for Hindu-Muslim unity in October 1924."

--------------------------
Sailors kill Hindu colleague over cartoon row
Feb 15, 2006 Express India
An Indian sailor was allegedly beaten to death by Islamic colleagues on board an oil tanker following an argument over the cartoon row. Official sources confirmed the death of 31-year-old Sudheer Nonia Jagannathan, hailing from Mumbai. The entire crew on the ship was from India.
--------------------------

Indeed there were more riots and more killings in India for
** DANISH CARTOONS
** SADDAM'S HANGING
** REV FALWELL'S REMARKS
than anywhere else.

The first drew a rally of about one million and that against BUSH visit drew a crowd of half a million. If oyu ask me, islamic MOBOCRACY is what is dominant in India where the people are carrying the burden of 140+ million islamic masses though two countries were created especially for them in 1947.

WHO NEEDS INT'L SUPPORT? India?? Or pakki or bangladesh islamofascists?

For the record

Submitted by marcfrans on Sun, 2008-09-14 18:42.

The reasons why I "dismiss the accusation against Van Hecke" were clearly explained in the first 2 paragraphs of the sub-section titled "Political Lynching" of the article.   He is being persecuted by the authorities, in true nazi-like fashion, on the basis of a manifestly unconstitutional law which criminalises (arbitrarily) speech and thoughts.  In fact, the official reason is that his name is 'associated' with a publication, but the real reason is of course to silence a political opponent. 

This is the sort of thing one would expect to happen in Egypt, or in Malaysia, etc... - where it does regularly happen - but not in the capital of 'Europe'.   If the European Parliament goes along with this kind of political lynching, the proof will be there that 'Eurabia' is already here.

 

@ kappert

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2008-09-14 15:28.

i   If I am "funny" you are a pathetic creature who, like Gandhi and his ilk, depend upon the sacrifice of others to maintain  life, liberty and the pursuit of the imaginary pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

ii  I've never been married to a Chinese.

 

iii The only reason I return to Gandhi is because YOU failed to refute the charges levelled at him the first, second, third ... time around. Here's another opportunity for you to attempt to do precisely that.

 

iv "What next: crossing google numbers with "bullshit" and "bible"?

   You try making a similar remark in a REAL Nazi society, replacing the word "Bible" with "Mein kampf", or in a Muslim country with the word "Quran" and see how far your pacifist 'principles' get you.

  

 

Latest results in for google search term ...

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2008-09-14 14:12.

No wonder kappert sees nazis (almost) everywhere he looks.He's scared -the word I'm thinking of rhymes with 'witless'- that, should REAL nazis ever return to power, HE will be forced to face  REALITY.

 

"Many people have forgotten that one of the most well-known pacifists of all time - Gandhi- proposed that NOTHING should have been done about ... the Nazis...". (see link).

Exit question: Why doesn't kappert take a leaf out of Gandhi's book and stop worrying about such matters?

 

PS: Latest results in for the google search term "Bullshit" = 25,500,000 and still counting.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/07/pacifism-what-is-it-good-for.html

@atlanticist

Submitted by kappert on Sun, 2008-09-14 14:47.

You are really funny. As your 'chinese marriage' didn't work out, you turn up with Gandhi (again). What's next: crossing google-numbers with 'bullshit' and 'bible'?

@ marcfrans

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2008-09-14 00:45.

Let's consider just one example of kappert's simplistic 'reasoning' here.He 'reasons' that "2,4 million google-entrances" for David Duke means, well, what precisely?

 

If you google the term "God" you'll find results in the region of 601,000,000 while a similar search for "Taoism" yields a relatively piddling 3,810,000. So, according to the raw data and kappertian 'reasoning', kappert should be most influenced by the Bible and possess a strong belief in the existence of the Almighty - but he isn't and he doesn't.Go figure.

character assassination # 2

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2008-09-13 23:32.

@ Atlanticist

Isn't it swell that kappert has pegged me as a "Nazi", just right after I declared that (a) David Duke is a nutcase, that (b) there are no doubt some 'racists' to be found in the VB party as everywhere, and after I blamed Nataraja for (c) overlooking or ignoring direct violations by the Belgian authorities of Belgium's own (theoretical) constitutional right to freedom of political speech.

Now, I ask you, is there any chance that the REAL nazis would have (a) considered white-supremacist David Duke  a nutcase, would have (b) worried about 'racism', and  would have (c) given a hoot about freedom of political speech? 

Considering Kappert's 'reasoning' abilities, it is just as well that he never directly tries to answer your numerous questions. 

@ Mimi

I agree that there are serious problems with Nataraja's kind of "anti-racism". Problems of moral 'relativism' and/or selectivity, and also of naivety about society's real problems today.

But, I must object to you "pegging her as a non-white".  That is a very small-minded thing to do and, I suspect, indicative of genuine 'racism'.  Her 'race' is - and should be - totally irrelevant to the subjects under discussion.  It is her opinions that matter, not her looks, and the same applies to you.  

@ JFP

What do you mean by reasoning applying "even more...than to marcfrans"? There was no reasoning, and it certainly did not apply to me.

@marcfrans

Submitted by kappert on Sun, 2008-09-14 12:46.

Let me check your 'reasoning abilities' by asking what do you mean by REAL nazis? Is it that unreal nazis may call David Duke a nutcase? And why do you suggest that 'there are no doubt some 'racists' to be found in the VB party as everywhere', is it your reason to accept it? Why do you dismiss the accusation against Vanhecke before it is even discussed in the EP? 'Problems of moral 'relativism' and/or selectivity, and also of naivety about society's real problems today' – that certainly goes for you as well. Have a peaceful Sunday.

@marcfrans

Submitted by Mimi on Sun, 2008-09-14 11:31.

With all due respect, marcfrans, identifying someone as belonging to a certain group based on what he or she writes is not racism. It is observation and common sense. One's belonging to a group is never indifferent to subjects under discussion. Believing so is an Enlightenment fallacy. We are always wedded to our position and our opinions reflect our interests and agendas even if (as it is often the case) we are not aware of it.

In her initial comment (way

Submitted by Paul Belien on Sat, 2008-09-13 22:48.

In her initial comment (way down) Nataraja refers to an article by Dr Koenraad Elst on the Dutch-language section of this website. Those who read Dutch will see that Dr Elst was not writing about the Vlaams Belang party (VB) but about the Flemish secessionist movement (Vlaamse Beweging, which in his article he also abbreviates as VB). The movement is broader than the party. Dr Elst regrets that some in this movement seem to harbor neo-nazi feelings. In his article he explicitly mentions that these people do not agree with the policies of Filip Dewinter, the Antwerp VB leader. I discussed this matter with Dr Elst and told him that I think that some of these neo-nazi activities are the work of infiltrators working for the Belgian state security services. While the latter turn a blind eye on Muslim extremism they fight Flemish secessionism with all means.

I would not be surprised if the Milik affair was also a set-up. Bruno Valkeniers, the leader of the Vlaams Belang, made it quite clear that his party denounces David Duke. On 4 July he issued the following statement:

Our party, Vlaams Belang, has been named in an involvement with the American “politician” David Duke. Karin Milik, one of our 1,500 local councillors, had Mr. Duke over at her house when he was in Belgium to speak at a conference with which our party had nothing to do.

Vlaams Belang does not wish to be associated or linked in any way with David Duke or his ideas. Vlaams Belang has no ties or affinity whatsoever with David Duke, the organisations he belongs to or the ideas he stands for.

Ms. Milik has apologized because it was never her intention to incriminate or associate Vlaams Belang with the figure of David Duke.

Vlaams Belang will not accept any repeat of such incidents.

Vlaams Belang strives for the independence of Flanders, fights the Islamization of Europe, defends the Judeo-Christian values of Western civilization, opposes anti-Semitism and all forms of racial prejudice, and regards the state of Israel as an invaluable ally in the struggle in which we are currently entangled with an enemy – radical Islam – that is bent on destroying our liberties and depriving our nations of their identity.

Contrary to what Nataraja writes, Karin Milik's husband is not Filip Dewinter's bodyguard. That is a piece of disinformation which Nataraja got from the Flemish left-wing, anti-American and anti-Israeli newspaper De Morgen, a paper which is notorious for its bias and which, apart from the journalists of the Belgian state television and radio, no-one takes serious.

Dear Mr.Belien

Submitted by Nataraja on Sun, 2008-09-14 16:43.

Some of your comments on my comment must make many people laugh out loud: neonazi elements in the flemish movement "infiltrators working for the Belgian state security services"?? And when did you discuss this with Mr Elst, after or before his article?
I honestly hope you just had a bad day when writing this adolescent paranoid cowboy-story crap as if we were living in a east european dictatorship during the 30s.
I strongly advice any interested reader of this debate to take the test and visit a few public events of Voorpost, NSV, VBJ (or the highly interesting Ijzerbedevaart), or easier: just take half an hour to really click on a few links of the websites of VB (esp. VBJ) related personalities. They all seem very enthusiastic in affiliating with "Belgian state security services". What a joke.
For the interested reader you, Mr Belien,as a specialist in the matter also seem to try and create a rather peculiar confusion here about the actual Flemish Seccenionist Movement here, which contains all sides of the politicial spectrum, from Leftist (VU/Spirit/Vlaamse progressieven) to Center-right (NVA) to extreme right, with its ugly outwashes of Vlaams Belang. Was the Elst article about the movement and its neonazi rotten apples? My remarks were not. And the notorious pub in question has been for many years a popular starting/ending point for VB (Vlaams Belang/Blok) gatherings in Antwerp, I dont think anyone in this city would deny this (except nowadays maybe the VB-leadership).
Finally, a rather shallow attempt to discredit the importance of the incident involving Karen Milik by drawing "De Morgen" in (which FYI I never read, but what the heck has "anti-Israeli" to do with it? As far as its anti-americanism would go, it is the only Belgian newspaper which publishes a weekly translation of Thomas L.Friedmans column), when the big bulk of articles about the case was published by "Het Nieuwsblad", a newspaper that has its roots in "De Standaard". I dont know Filip Dewinters bodyguards, and who knows its no longer up-to-date information. Many other blunt illustrations of the dirty roots and affiliations of the VB stay cristal clear for me.

And finally, I guess you might consider me an "agent of the Belgian state security" too (even though I hope they dont find out I'm an NVA voter), but just for the record: I am neither female nor non-white, as some of you seem to have concluded.

With warmest regards, and a slight but growing disbelief in the honesty of your efforts with this blog,
Nataraja

kappert

Submitted by JFP on Sat, 2008-09-13 20:21.

I would have thought that your reasoning applies to the other side even more than to marcfrans. The murder of Theo van Gogh raises hardly a dribble of outrage among the cultural institutions of the West.

Right eye blindness

Submitted by kappert on Sat, 2008-09-13 17:05.

The vigorous defence of marcfrans reminds me of the 1920ths in Germany, where crimes committed by right-wingers were 'calmed down' and bluntly banalised (we speak of murder, of course) by the state jurisdiction. Calling 'cultivated irrational anti-Americanism' to a syndrome of world-domination-strategy shows that marcfrans himself identifies with Nazism in the very definition: overrule common sense and define a line of conduct to foster its own interest (please, study Leipniz and Arendt). Calling a 'triviality' the links between VB and KKK (2,4 million google-entrances for 'David Duke' proves that he's hardly a nobody), belongs to the denying method human butcherer usually apply, from Stalin via Goebbels to Cheney. Calling 'mental blindness' to oppositions belongs to the same mindset of believes, cumulating calling 'kopindegronderij' to the efficiency of state laws (as it is marcfrans who wants to put the others heads into the ground!). Conclusion: marcfrans is a Nazi with a pathologic illness of superiority and self-narcissism, capable to work in the marketing department for VB.

Right eye blindness?

Submitted by KO on Mon, 2008-09-15 20:50.

No reasonable person can include Vice-President Cheney in any list of historical butchers except as a humorous or a deliberately insulting provocation.

Congratulations # 3

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2008-09-13 15:59.

@ Nataraja

I am not banalizing anything. I clearly told you that I know that there are 'racists' in the VB.  Can you recognise that there are 'racists' among your "social network", and that there are many forms of racism?  Cultivated irrational anti-Americanism is the most prevalent form of 'racism' today in Belgium.  I doubt that you can recognise it.

Yes, I claim that Mr Belien's article is NOT about "disassociating the VB" from racists. The article is about, I repeat: (a) the bus incidents, (b) the mayor of Brussels banning a 9/11 remembrance demonstration, and (c) about the absolutely outrageous persecution of Mr Van Hecke (for presumed political thought crimes, not for any criminal DEEDS). 

Yes, the purported "friendship" of Mr Dewinter with a nutcase like David Duke is a real "triviality", and I will tell you why.  David Duke is not only a nutcase, he is a 'nobody'.  He is like you and me, only more notorious. He has no power, he does not hold any office, and (as far as I know) he has never DONE anything criminal (otherwise he would be in trouble with the US justice system, which does not pursue thoughts nor words, but criminal deeds or actions).  

You are not suffering from dyslexia, but you are suffering from mental blindness.  You canNOT see the elephant in the room (the state authorities persecuting political opponents with totalitarian means), while you are being obsessed with a fly on the wall (some individual radicals who have no state power). You seem outraged by the KKK, an outfit of nutcases that was 'rolled up' by the FBI decades ago, but seem blind to real contemporary terrorism and the manifest appeasement (and in some cases "friendship") of real totalitarian powers in the world today by some of Belgium's leading politicians.  In short, you lack 'perspective', as does the Belgian media in general. And, in the future, new 'Belgian' generations will pay a terrible price for all this 'kopindegronderij' of today.

Jo van deurzen is like his

Submitted by Paganini on Sat, 2008-09-13 09:06.

Jo van deurzen is like his voice sounds: a weazel, a little boy, a castrate, a traitor

They use a most banal, meaningless incident to persecute someone only because he is a succesfull opponent

Typical for this degenerated country

But the real tragedy is not Jo Van Deurzen, nor the system he represents. he real problem are the Flems that vote and will continue to vote for the Van Deurzens

Hi panamboy

Submitted by Nataraja on Sat, 2008-09-13 09:34.

If "islam" stands for something as: cowardice extremist islam-inspired hatebreeders isolating their community from our western society and its values and oppose it while enjoying its comfort and protection, then yes, I am an islamophobe, all the way.

I just
have too many muslims in my social network (unfortunately currently too fed up with the shit casted over them as a category to stand up in public) who dissaprove and criticize that segment of their community just as much as I do to conclude its "Islam" I should be phobic about. All bearded misogynistic fundamentalist terrorism-promoting nutcases, yes, I fear them tremendously, and I hope they may loose support one day and die out, the sooner the better, both in the countries that breed them, and the western cities that provide them with a breeding ground of disrooted youth to brainwash.

Nataraja, come again?

Submitted by onecent on Sat, 2008-09-13 14:32.

Those "terrorism-promoting nutcases" are not going to disappear until your moderate Muslim friends who are "too fed up with the shit casted over them as a category to stand up in public" which is a lame excuse to begin with stand up publically and loudly denounce their nutcases. Their silence has made them suspect and placed them in the catagory.

Show me anywhere in the west where a full page ad has been taken out by moderate Muslims denouncing the violence? Anywhere? That's a pretty safe and easy thing to do. Show me any "million man march" as have been organized in Washinton DC for other issues by moderate Muslims showing solidarity in denouncing the violence? Paris? London? Anywhere? Any other religion that felt it was hijacked by radicals would be loudly denouncing the radicals and well organized to do it by now. Instead we get poll after poll in Britain and other countries showing that a very large minority of alleged "moderate" Muslims support terrorism as an end and Sharia laws.

Your Muslim friends are disingenuous. Their excuse is childish and doesn't fly. They will be painted by the same brush until they open their mouths.

Face it, Islam is the problem. Intolerance and violance are inherent in the Koran. Applying it isn't radical behavior and that's why it can't be denounced or eradicated.

In appropriate is right!!

Submitted by Dr. D on Fri, 2008-09-12 22:36.

It is extremely inappropriate and insensitive to hold Ramadan at such a time of morning. Muslims should show some respect for the dead and knock it off!

@DrD

Submitted by onecent on Sat, 2008-09-13 03:16.

Muslims should show some respect for the dead and knock it off!

They never will. They have murdered us when and where they can. That has been going on for decades with the body count moving up in the past decade. Our deaths are a celebration to Islam. Americans watched images of cheering Palestinians and others across the ME the day after 9/11.

What kind of culture or religion produces people that cheer the death of innocent civilians? By what insane policy would western countries permit the influx of that kind of barbarism? That muslims are mocking 9/11, are insulted by any remembrance of it doesn't surpise me. It's the European politician that let's that pass or appeases those elements that I hold in more contempt.

Congratulations # 2

Submitted by marcfrans on Fri, 2008-09-12 22:01.

@ Nataraja

I understand your "irritation", and I agree with you that there are definitely 'racists' to be found among the VB party.  There are 'racists' to be found in every political party in Belgium, and probably everywhere in the world, and there are many forms of racism too.  Some forms of racism are much more insidious and dangerous than the silly superficial kind of so-called neo-nazis that you are obsessed by.  For example, the idea that immigrants should not be held to the same behavioral standards as 'natives' is a subtle form of racism, in the sense of  the 'bigotry of low expectations'.  That would definitely apply to the mayor of Brussels, but he does not risk being persecuted by the powers-that-be-today.

So, I am telling you that "irritation" is not a wise counsel.  You better try to remain objective and comment on what you actually read, not on what you imagine reading.  The article contained factual reporting on the 3 facts that I already listed: the busincident, the arbitrary selective ban by the mayor of Brussels, and the persecution of Mr Van Hecke for presumed 'thought' crimes (not deeds!).  There were no "flowers" being thrown over the VB party in this article.  You simply resent that the article didn't expose some of the 'bad apples' of the VB. But the subject was, I repeat: the bus incident, the mayor's ban, and Mr van Hecke.

I wil tell you a real-life story.  When I was a school child in Belgium in the early 1950's, for a time I used to take everyday the train from a suburb of Antwerp, in the company of the National Secretary of the then Communist Party of Belgium.  This was at the time of Stalin and the goulag, when half a million American soldiers were based in Germany (and elsewhere in Europe) to keep Stalin's armies out, etc... In those days, the National Secretary of the communist party had absolutely no problems speaking his mind freely in Belgium.  The authorities did not persecute communists then like they do today Mr van Hecke (and others to intimidate the rest). And that was at a time when real-life communism posed a mortal threat to democracy in Europe.   If you have no problem with the three facts that were being reported on in the article, then I can only conclude that this is a further indication that 'democracy' has significantly regressed in Western Europe over the past 50 years or so, and that tolerance for unorthodox ideas, unorthodox in terms of the ruling naive-left ideology, has largely disappeared again. 

The real "hypocrisy" is that you are OK with the SELECTIVE persecution of individual Belgian citizens for thoughts and opinions, or for trivialities like association with a nutcase like David Duke etc..., while those doing the persecuting (via state organs) are often OPEN and EXPLICIT apologists for some of the most tyranical regimes in the world.  Where shall we begin?  The friendship visits of leading PS politicians to Castro? That is only a start.....

@ Marcfrans

Submitted by Nataraja on Sat, 2008-09-13 09:24.

and again we are rolling...

Banalize the point, and start about another one. I am equally disgusted by tyrannical regimes on the other side of the political spectrum when they are defended and romanticized. And I'd be happy to join in a discussion if that is the issue at stake. But it wasnt.

If you claim that the article by Mr. Belien is not about dissociating Vlaamsbelang from its associations with racism, I must have had an acute attack of dyslexia and ended up reading something else. In the whole spectrum of reactionary political movements that adress what the establishment doesnt want to, I just conclude that Vlaamsbelang is of a whole different order, and its party ranks are filled with stinking rotten hate-breeding racists, and there's plenty of evidence. If you have the guts to call the close friendship of a VB politician with a Klu Klux Clan leader a "triviality", (which off course Dewinter and Vanhecke etc did too) we are just on a completely different level of understanding Marcfrans, note taken. I will fight this type of disgusting white power race-based simplicity until my last breath, and VB is full of it. At least many counterparts of VBJ (the swedish Nationaldemokraterna would be a good example, VBJ leader Bjorn Roose has frequently organised VBJ study tours to visit this national-socialist group in Sweden) have the honesty to live up what they stand for. Know your enemy. I do. I recongnize it no matter how much you dress it up in sheep clothes and try to shove it down our throats as a remedy for all our fears. I dont want it and I never will.

@ Nataraja

Submitted by Björn Roose on Mon, 2008-09-15 13:04.

Dear Nataraja,

I wouldn't dare questioning your sources, but I dare saying you wrote more than one blatant lie in this next phrase: "VBJ leader Bjorn Roose has frequently organised VBJ study tours to visit this national-socialist group in Sweden".

I was nor am namely the "leader" of VBJ; I have never organised any trips for VBJ, not to Sweden or anywhere else; I have never had any contact with what you call "this national-socialist group"; I have never even visited Sweden myself.

If the rest of your "information" is as correct as the information about me,it is not worth reading for anybody.

Dear Bjorn Roose,

Submitted by Nataraja on Mon, 2008-09-15 14:26.

Nice to have you here joining the debate.
You are absolutely 100% right, I mistakingly wrote the wrong name down when I was mentioning the VBJ-link with Nationaldemokraterna (forgive me for sometimes mixing up a few of your league).
It is no one else but our friend Bert Deckers www.bertdeckers.be (check the white power-signs!) who has organised a study tour to sweden with VBJ in 2004, see some lovely pics of the event of the swedish national-socialist movement on his blog http://www.vbjantwerpen.org/fotosbert.html

My excuses for this unforgivable mistake which of course completely dismantles and destroys all of my credibility, but if it is of any consolation to your hurt pride: of all people I consider to be my enemies in a political sense, I think you are amongst the most erudite and eloquent, and your blog is a nice read and an excellent database for study of the extreme right for the uninformed.
Warmest regards

Nataraja

@ Nataraja

Submitted by traveller on Mon, 2008-09-15 21:13.

Wow, I missed a lot the last 2 weeks.
You don't see the forest anymore because of the trees my dear.
The racism, a very overused and devalued word these days, I am personally most upset about is the one applied by the belgian establishment.
Since about 1000 years the Flemish cities and people, rich hard working independent people with freedom guaranteed in their cities while the whole of Europe, except for the Northern Italian cities, was feudal and worked on a bonded labor system, were invaded by the French, the Spanish and the Austrians until Napoleon topped it all and tried to just make us French. He also stole everything in sight.
All this was done with a total disdain for those Flemish peasants. When Belgium was created the french speaking "Herrenvolk" took total control of the country until this very day and laughed at our "boerentaaltje/peasant language", taxed us to death and generally treated us like second class citizens with lesser voting rights than our "masters".
The disdain of the belgian ruling classes for the Flemish people is still palpable today, they refuse even to speak our "peasant language" which they call "une maladie de la gorge/ a disease of the throat" amongst each other. That Nataraja is racism, you only have to read "Le Soir" for confirmation. We are loaded with all sins of the world by our "masters".
Out of this unnatural and hateful situation grew slowly the recuperation of the Flemish identity, largely by the VB efforts. When our "masters" saw this they imported the uneducated North African, black African and Turk to diminue our population majority and valued those imported migrants with higher ratings than the Flemish "peasants".
Result: a popular reaction against the non-civilised and non-attuned immigrant who started to act in a most offensive and largely unacceptable manner in our society, while our "masters" were hiding in their guarded villas.
That is the reality Nataraja and your selective appraoch to the VB is highly suspicious and brands you all of a sudden as the real extremist which I didn't think you were. You are more tolerant towards immigrant criminality than towards a political grass roots movement of your own people. You are not giving the Flemish situation a second thought, you only see your very restricted little field.
I am very sorry Nataraja, I expected more of you.
VB is Flemish and comes out of your own Flemish people. If you are not Flemish, I apologize, but I am pretty sure you are.

Dear Nataraja

Submitted by Björn Roose on Mon, 2008-09-15 18:35.

Bert Deckers is neither as me the "VBJ leader".

Not only that "correction" of yours was wrong, so was your claim that Mr. Deckers would have "frequently organised VBJ study tours to visit this national-socialist Group in Sweden", since you now speak of only one VBJ visit to Sweden in 2004.

As far as I can see it was not a "study tour" either, but, as Mr. Deckers says, "a political trip". Any proof of the "national-socialist" activities of this group I do by the way not see in the pictures you are so kind to point me to.

And what you probably call a minor mistake is indeed an unforgivable mistake. If you don't even get the names wright (at least there you can easily check your facts), what would your interpretation of less clear things be worth ?

Greetings,

Björn Roose

Dear Bjorn

Submitted by Nataraja on Tue, 2008-09-16 09:30.

Your weak-ass lukewarm attempts of creating confusion around the issues I raised around VBJ/Bert Deckers stand in sharp contrast with your otherwise so vocal and outspoken positions that can be read on your own blog. Note taken, I expected more from you of all people.
For crying out loud, how much I appreciate honesty instead of this hypocrite shuffling around the matter of the fact, which is in this point (and the rest, like the Karen Milik case, and the pub case in Antwerp, is off course conveniently silenced and forgotten by now):

- No Bert Deckers is not the leader of VBJ national, but only of its Antwerp section, the biggest town in Flanders, and stronghold of the VB movement. (I by the way wonder when he will show up here. Bert?)
- If you choose to claim to be uninformed about the Swedish neo-nazi scene and the contacts of VBJ, I just confirm here for anyone else with an interest that "Nationell idag", as seen on the picture from a big National-socialist event in Sweden in 2004 that was the main reason for the "political trip" of VBJ, is the magazine of the National Democrats. "Folkets Nyheter" as seen on the picture is a small but quite extreme newsletter, with articles on race purity and white power. A very similar discourse surrounds ND in Sweden than VB in Belgium, except that its much less uncomfortable in admitting its national-socialist sympathies, and any public event of this club welcomes an enthusiastic gang of shaved heads in bomberjacks (which off course VBJ, Voorpost, NSV etc never ever have huh?).

I deeply despise this segment of the Flemish movement (which by the way, Traveller, should be enough to answer your doubts about me), it is a shameful charicature of what the Flemish movement could be if its willing to grow up, and I just hope open debate (at least, with people from all sides that are, unlike you, honest enough to admit what they stand for) will cultivate an environment in which these romanticized medieval wet dreams on race purity and militant protection of the most narrow interpretation of a territory-based culture which is per definition superior to everything outside of it, shall no longer be needed to solve our fears and problems.

P.S: I wish you all strength and courage Mr. Roose to stop being ashamed of yourself like this, and start being proud of what you stand for. It makes the debate more honest for everyone, and more importantly, might diminish the risk of being dragged in the schizofrenic identity crisis which the rest of Vlaams Belang is currently stuck in. Good luck with it.

Warmest regards

Nataraja

Dear Nataraja

Submitted by Björn Roose on Tue, 2008-09-16 10:08.

Dear Nataraja,

1) The one “creating confusion” is you. You don’t have your facts straight, you’re the one tumbling from one lie into another. I feel no need – and there IS no need - using more words to denounce your lies and misinformation than I used before. Other people here have done the same thing for other or the same parts of your texts.
2) If you want people to take part in the “discussion”, you should just invite them in. The only reason I came here was because my name popped up doing a so called vanity search (which proved useful again). I suppose you haven’t even thought about asking Mr. Deckers to join your “discussion” ?
3) I do not “choose to claim to be uninformed about the Swedish neo-nazi scene and the contacts of VBJ”, I just don’t know anything about that “scene” (why would I, I’m not at all interested in those people ?) nor do I follow what VBJ does.
4) Since I do not even know one word of Swedish and can’t read the minds of people (which apparently you can), I don’t know what the reason for Mr. Decker’s visit to Sweden was (nor am I interested, as a matter of fact) and I can’t say whether you’re wright about the content of “Folkets Nyheter”. But since you tell me that “a very similar discourse surrounds ND in Sweden than VB in Belgium”, there cannot actually be “articles on race purity and white power” in that newsletter, since there are no such articles in Vlaams Belang newsletters.
5) Voorpost does not have the habit of saying how people should wear their hair nor what vests people should wear. I myself have long hair and never wear “bomberjacks”, other people have no hair and always wear “bomberjacks”. Why should I be troubled about that ? Ideas are not in the clothes or on the crane but IN the head.
6) I feel no shame at all about myself and am very proud of what I stand for. I am the one of us working under my own name, without any nicknames, remember ? I have no problem with everyone knowing what I stand for. So if you want to make “the debate more honest for everyone”, you should try and feel no shame about yourself and be proud of what you stand for yourself. At least have the decency to openly stand for what you think.

Dear Bjorn

Submitted by Nataraja on Tue, 2008-09-16 10:42.

- "Lies and desinformation": well, I guess it depends on how significant you judge differences like the one between VBJ on a national level or on the level of its biggest and most active city division.
-"Other people here have done the same thing for other or the same parts of your texts."
I must have missed out on that.
- About not asking Mr. Deckers, he once jumped in during a discussion on this website on the question why he has the White Power-sign on his website. His only answer was that "I shouldn't be blinded by what I see", or some similar deep remark.
- Voorpost: yes, I know you are not all looking like WP-skins. Its precisely the inside-the-head part I'm most worried about.
-"At least have the decency to openly stand for what you think."
I am really trying to, dear Bjorn. I'm sympathetic to the Flemish cause due to an anti-Belgian stand (and as said, vote for NVA), not because of childish "race-purity" dreams which I think have caused some of the most disgraceful escalations of man-made conflict in history. I truly despise movements promoting this and glorifying a dark past, no matter from which side, hence my postings.
And yes, I do seem to know much more about the Swedish neo-nazi movement than you. If I, based on what is to be found on your blog, the links you provide on it, the people you refer too in your writings and on your website (which contains rather many VB/VBJ references for someone who doesn't follow what they do), have drawn the conclusion that you could be placed in the same league wrongly, my mistake shall be clear whenever its needed, so don't let it stress you. Everyone reading this piece can see what you distanciated yourself from. Note taken.

Since our interaction starts to reach unhealthy levels of disrespect (I plead guilty too) I suggest we close it here.

"I despise your ideas, but I will defend to the death your right to express them." Voltaire

Dear Nataraja

Submitted by Björn Roose on Tue, 2008-09-16 13:55.

1) You know as well as I do that I was not just talking about that lie (remember what lies started this “discussion” ?);
2) Maybe you should read the other reactions;
3) I don’t care what Mr. Deckers had to say during another discussion. I suggested you to invite people if you want to discuss with them (which seemed obvious since you wondered if Mr. Deckers would join in);
4) If you’re worried about “the inside-the-head part”, why do you make a fuss about the outside-the-head part then ?
5) There’s no point in “trying” to openly stand for what you think. It can’ t be that hard to use your own name, can it ?
6) “Rather many VB/VBJ references” ? The only references I make to Vlaams Belang colleagues are references in response to one they made to me. Because I always refer back.
7) No doubt you could link me to the Bilderbergers, Hare Krishna or whatever thing you would like to link me to if you only would try. But it takes a lot more than that to “stress” me, boy. You’re not really unique in what you do, you know.
8) I’ve not “distanciated” me from anything, as far as I know. To distance yourself from something, you should first be close to it.
9) Disrepect ? Bigger than the one shown by you when you wrote that I was the VBJ leader, organised trips to Sweden and had contacts with so called neonazi groups out there ? I don’t think so.

Dear Mr. Belien

Submitted by Nataraja on Tue, 2008-09-16 15:24.

I hope you don't mind me closing my (way too long) list of contributions to this topic with a small final reaction. Due to a simple mixing up of two names within the Flemish-Nationalist movement (Bert Deckers and Bjorn Roose) this topic ended up in a rather lengthy outcome designed to take away all attention from the topic which I was trying to adress, namely the presence of neo-nazi sympathies within the Flemish movement, and discredit the sincerity of my intentions.
I've read somewhere that some people think its ridiculous to have this discussion in English. I think the opposite. We better start whiping our own floor before inviting the outside world onto the red carpet leading up to presenting Vlaams Belang as Lord and Saviour of our troubled country, let alone the rest of Europe.
As long as I manage to end up on a postorder company (Fenris) selling neonazi/racist music, paraphernalia and books, with one click away (!) from the website of one of the movements claiming a prominent place in the Flemish movement (Voorpost, contact their press responsible Bjorn Roose for more info), I will keep on speaking out against it.
As long as I see blunt referals to an international network with some of the most extreme kinds of racist ideologies (such as Nationaldemokraterna, Stormfront...) that surround certain personalities within the VB- circle of power, I will keep on speaking out, and Im sure glad to be not alone.
It was very entertaining to see how most reactions to my postings attempted to avoid a clear answer on a simple question: how much of racism/neonazi sympathy is really present in these movements? To me the answer is crystal clear which ones are blunt racists and which aren't. I know where to put certain VB figures. To the ones carrying out this filth, the point is apparently to shuffle it away, avoid the spotlights, twist and turn and cast mud on the messenger instead of refuting the message with arguments wherever there is some space for it. Call me a liar, call me an "anti-fascist" (fair enough, although I'd probably feel highly uncomfortable in the political spectrum of the organized branch of this) , I know what I stand for and what I believe in. And Im never scared of admitting this.

Nataraja

PS I wonder how common it is on this blog that the usage of an alias is considered a reason for lacking credibility. Would you say so? If it is, I guess I, and many others, would better stay away.

Is Vlaams Belang professional?

Submitted by kabwell on Mon, 2009-01-19 11:33.

My wife recently went to Belgium for a holiday and soak up some European hospitality, visiting all of the major cities. She loved it there and the hospitality she received in Flanders was exceptional. For me to be a part of the trip i googeled Belgium, it's history and politics, as i have been involved in politics in Australia for the far left Australian Greens. When i looked at the Vlaams Belang site it was like my eyes had been open to the threat of Islaminization worldwide. My views and beliefs have been challenged to the point that i now follow a VB line in most areas of policy. I bought the book "A throne in Brussels" which has just arrived and from the few pages i have been able to read so far, it is a well researched book. My problem is that i have contacted Vlaams Belang on numerous occasions over the last two months, both by email and phone and have received no replies. Is this how a large political party treats allies and supporters from other countries? We are starved of Belgium news and politics here in Australia and i was hoping to promote VB and the Flemish cause by Displaying VB stickers, flags etc. If anyone reading this could give VB a nudge i would be very appreciative.

Bill Weller ( my parents are Dutch)
Australia

Dear Nataraja

Submitted by Björn Roose on Tue, 2008-09-16 20:09.

You really must be joking. Now you're claiming that my reaction to your lies and disinformation is "designed to take away all attention from the topic which (...) [you were] trying to adress" ? Let me tell you this: if you wouldn't have told a few blatant lies about me, I would not even have reacted to what you wrote (remember I arrived here via a vanity search). You're thirteen in a dozen, actually, and if you're reaction wouldn't have been a personal attack on me, I couldn't have cared less. You must be a real plottie to believe otherwise.

Concerning Fenris: you don't even have to click anywhere. Just buy the Voorpost-magazine Revolte and you'll see paid publicity for Fenris in every issue of it. If that is not a discovery, what is ? So feel free to mention my name everytime you make claims about this "relation" between Fenris and Voorpost. It's no news, but all publicity is good publicity.

PS: I wouldn't even have said anything about your alias if you wouldn't have claimed that I dare not stand for what I believe in. You missed that, I suppose ?

Nataraja's anti-racism

Submitted by Mimi on Sat, 2008-09-13 21:36.

Nataraja: "I will fight this type of disgusting white power race-based simplicity until my last breath"

And why do you feel so passionate about it that you would fight it to your "last breath"? That's a pretty strong statement. No person of white European background will fight racism to his "last breath." I therefore peg you as a non-white and judge your statements to be self-serving.

@marcfrans

Submitted by kappert on Fri, 2008-09-12 19:19.

Hypocrisy? You hit the bull's eye: Frank Vanhecke is everything else than a 'subtle' racist. Former member of Nationalistisch Jong Studenten Verbond and the Nationalistische Studenten Vereniging, he is pretty much a common NAZI. The 9/11 demonstration should have been realised without the thugs of VB. That onecent is parroting you, I don't care, but as a Belgian you should maintain a clear distance to racists and nazis like Vanhecke! I certainly hope that the EP will lift parliamentary immunity on this fellow, a petition brought in by the Christian-Democratic Party!

Hypocrisy ? ?

Submitted by marcfrans on Fri, 2008-09-12 16:18.

@ Natarya

Let's look at this article more closely.  It reports accurately (as far as I can tell) on a number of facts. Let's put them in a row:

-- Yesterday, 'youth' in an immigrant neighborhood of Brussels did throw stones at buses.  Did  they, or didn't they?

-- The mayor of Brussels has been ARBITRARILY  banning and approving demonstrations in Brussels in recent years.  He did ban yesterday's 9/11 remembrance demonstration. Did he, or didn't he?  What is wrong with remembering 9/11? 

--  Belgium does now have laws that criminalise speech and/or ideas, just like they do in muslim countries.   Does it or doesn't it?   And the powers-that-be use and abuse those laws to destroy political opposition.  Mr Belien reports on the latest example, i.e. the persecution of Mr Van Hecke.  And the European Parliament may well jump on this manifestly-undemocratic (abuse of the Belgian constitution) bandwagon. 

There are no doubt nutcases to be found everywhere and in most political movements.  And, while there are no doubt many forms of 'racism' (some more overt than others, and some more 'subtle'), I consider governmental ACTIONS undermining democracy and denying freedom of political speech much more injurious to society than possible THOUGHTS of 'racism'.   

It would appear, Natarya, that the "hypocrisy" is all yours, and I certainly would not want to be in the same (political or any other) boat with the likes of kappert.

 

marcfans, great points.

Submitted by onecent on Fri, 2008-09-12 18:40.

marcfans, great points. Democracy isn't fragile like totalitarian systems because with free speech in an open market place of ideas bad ideas are exposed, debated and rejected. Altering that process compromises democracy.

The next 9/11 will most likely be on a scale with tens or hundreds of thousands dead. Here, Europe, Israel, who knows yet? Terrorism is exponential in its scale, egocentric and irrational. Perhaps after the next big horror is inflicted on us lessons will be finally learned.

It baffles me that European politicians like the mayor of Brussels don't understand that appeasement isn't going to make it better. What part of the 1930's and WWII don't they understand?

The punks that threw rocks at the buses like the car burners in France have a motive. Their sympathies are aligned with the violant that inflict human misery and chaos. That can't be ignored or appeased without consequences.

Congratulations

Submitted by Nataraja on Fri, 2008-09-12 21:01.

You all play splendidly along with the denial-game which makes VB so irritating to me.
In my first reaction I headed "hypocrisy", I approve of the first point of the article (freedom of speech also for my opponents and mayor of Brussels crossed the line) and I mention 3 facts (I can easily make the list longer) why I think this article is hypocrite in throwing flowers over Vlaams Belang and raging on how wrong it is to associate the party with racism:

1. an incident in Antwerp last month where a well-known gathering place for VB-adepts paints nazi-styled letters on its front wall (and take it away promptly when the jewish community complains)
2. a VB communal politician, married to the bodyguard of partyleader Filip Dewinter, invites Stormfront-founder and KKK-guru David Duke over for staying at her house and the parties leadership doesnt move an inch when the media strom breaks loose (this happened about 2 months ago: are we out of our mind if we start to banalize these type of alliances?)
3. VBJ is a gathering place for white power-activists of various breed, some pretty ugly ones, that use racial purity as a foundation for political action (if one is not allowed to call this for racism, could you tell us what is?)

All your reactions dont mention a word about these ugly stains on VBs ugly face. Denial. Just like the party leaders.

(Just as a side-note: if its the flemish cause one is after, there are excellent alternatives to vote on that do not carry this acidic stench of a hidden racist agenda)

Hypocrisy

Submitted by Nataraja on Fri, 2008-09-12 14:27.

In true Voltairian tradition I must admit that I detest the ideas of Vlaams Belang, but I would die for their right to express them. So I think the mayor of Brussels did a terrible mistake and is fighting a dirty war and abusing his power.

The irony however is that this article, whose buttery tone and flowery praise of Vlaams Belang as a total innocent flemish movement, coincides with an article on the Dutch section by Koenraad Elst who describes the recent incident around the facade of a well-known pub in Antwerp, a popular gathering place of VB-adepts, that had repainted their facade with letters reminescent of the nazi era. The SS-like letters were quickly overpainted after a complaint from the Antwerp Jewish community. The author Elst comments on a movement that has to be able to "impose the necessary discipline on its members to keep its emotional knots in line" (see "De Emo-flamingant"). The question is off course if Vlaams Belang is really interested to do so. A recent controversy around a VB communal policitian in the flemish commune of Sint-Niklaas, Ms. Karin Milik, who had invited no one else but former KKK-leader David Duke to stay over at her house, was silenced to death by the VB-leadership, including mr Frank van Hecke whom mr Naets has "never been able to catch him out on any form of racism whatsoever". The fact that Ms Miliks husband is one of the bodyguards of VB leader Filip Dewinter might have been a factor of relevance. Congratulations for your sharp sight Mr-Naets. I dont need to look so long as 30 years though. Several members of VB, especially the so-called "Vlaams Belang Jongeren" (VBJ) still boast ridiculous ideas about race purity and dream of battle troops in their strivings for a white flanders. Open the website of the chairman of  VBJ and a white power-cross is the first thing that jumps in the eye www.bertdeckers.be

Follow a few links (if you know Dutch, because English is an unacceptable dilution of their language roots for many of them) and you can easily end up on various postorder companies that sell white-power parafernalia, and a fine selection of extreme nationalistic groups all over Europe. Is this what its about then? But you know what, I really appreciate honesty, and strongly dislike playing with two faces, like the hypocrisy of this article painfully illustrates.

I know some will comment now that that was not the point of the article, so here it is, once again: I hope VB gets the right to demonstrate whenever they want. And hopefully their neo-nazi support troops will come out then for all of us to see. Together with Mr Elst I still hope they have the decency to make up their mind if they really want to get rid of these or not. Meanwhile, silencing their existence is unacceptable.