@atheling,

I know you might think it a typical sample of malicious Eurony, so I won't put too much emphasis on the fact that Pope Benedict has qualitate qua (of course) not produced any offspring to help counter the dwindling European fertility rates. I really admire him for his stance on Islam, 'cause i.m.h.o. that's what really matters in the final analysis.

But for you, presenting yourself as a ehm.. committed anti-European Catholic - albeit more anti-Euro than catholic perhaps -, surely it must feel somehow like a wicked twist of faith, that your supreme spiritual leader happens to be, well.. a European ;-)

Sag.

I'll type in caps so you get it through your thick skull:

AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE SEPARATE ENTITIES. AMERICA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EUROPE. AMERICA IS NOT LIKE EUROPE (Thank you, God). AMERICA WAS ESTABLISHED IN ORDER TO AVOID THE PITFALLS AND PROBLEMS CREATED IN EUROPE AND TO ESCAPE EUROPEAN OPPRESSION.

I apologize. I wrote that you lacked the independence of mind to escape the media's conditioning. I was wrong. You lack far more than independence of mind. To say that America has "nothing" to do with Europe is so stupid that I don't know where to begin refuting it. So I won't bother. You wouldn't understand me anyway, not being able to speak any European language.

When the shit hits the fan in Europe, don't look westward, and stay the fuck out of America.

Yes, it's easy to see why you don't feel we're on your intellectual level. Still, you can console yourself that, as a humble, courteous Washingtonian Catholic, you've done your best to follow the tenets of your religion.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

That's the non-European, non-anti-Christian Thomas Paine, I presume.

Okay Atheling, have it your way.

I was expecting some sort of counterpoint, but I wasn't prepared for such hysterical discourtesy. You, being a Catholic (or so you say) should perhaps have paid a little more attention to what B-16 had to say.

Of course there are plenty of sensible conservatives in the States still, people who might disagree but don't lose their heads so easily, so I will continue to look West.

Kind regards from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Atheling, America is nothing but Europe. America IS the real Europe that still remains. It is the Europeans that betrayed Europe, not the Americans. You are the only Europeans still remaining.

It seems we disagree on some important points,  Atheling. No use to resort to the somewhat condescending "you don't understand". Just a firm exchange of differing views will do. Fair enough?

I'm not arguing the demographic points you bring to the front of the debate about the Islamization of Western culture. I do question however the way you go on about this in what seem to be mere moralistic religious rants. I fully acknowledge, as you know already, the enormous international value of Benedict XVI and his stance on Islam. But the respect that he shows non-catholics when discussing the issue of the crisis of the West's self-understanding, does not transpire in your outright condemnation of Europeans as followers of a "cult of death". Seems you yourself have very little to offer in the way of encouraging people on this side of the Atlantic to resist Islamization. Nothing but at lot of preaching about your religion of demographics. That's not exactly reaching out, or is it?

In the title of my previous post, I inserted somewhat of a personal note. To scale things down to more humane proportions, so to speak.
Look, my point is: if you'd come by and talk to my wife or my sister and repeat with the same gusto as you do over here that they, being hedonistic Europeans, subscribe to a "cult of death", then I might be able to respect, well just a bit at least, the harsh and rather abstract judgemental stance you seem to take so easily online.

Allow me to put forward my point even a bit more personal, just to be absolutely clear about the thing that bothers me most about your tone of voice.

Here's the story.

I never knew my grandmother from my mother's side. She died a few years after World War 2.0
My grandfather had miraculously escaped certain death by firing squad, when he was liberated by his mates from the Dutch resistance from Nazi imprisonment. It was a harsh and bitter fate that just few years later his wife died, for something both of them really struggled with, but what the "cult of life" (excusez le mot) demanded of them. She died while giving birth to her eleventh child.
My mother all witnessed this at six years of age: the utter despair of her own mother, even the odd attempt at running away from it all (and thinking it was her little brother and herself, who somehow had done something terribly wrong), and finally the death of her mother. Can you imagine she was scarred for life, by the fact that her mother bled to death?
Now you may react any way you see fit, to this tale of European "petite histoire". But I really hope you'll refrain from your all too familiar statements about anti-christian hedonism, et cetera, just because my own mother made the choice to have less children than the one she dearly missed all her life.

Kind regards from Amsterdam,

Sagunto

Post scriptum:

Having said all this, I nevertheless value our exchange of opinions.

I won't bother to respond to ovalteen's racism.

And there, ladies and gentleman, is proof that Ath' is liberal. But then he lacks the independence of mind to break free of his media conditioning and is merely here to parrot the Steyn-line: "It's about culture and demographics, not race." Yes, Ath', I'm a racist: just like Enoch Powell, whose arguments were shut down by liberals with responses just like yours.

Brits prefer immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan for a whole bunch of reasons, whether economic, cultural, religious, etc. It's called common sense.

And, oh yeh, Clivus's statements on fertility rates rebounding is unmitigated horseshit.

[quote: atheling]

"..All Europeans care about is NOW. All they want is to enjoy their hedonistic pursuits and have the nanny state care for them when they grow old. To hell with the future.."

So you want those hedonistic Europeans to defeat the Islamists at their own game: the womb as a weapon? To be frank, I'm getting a bit tired of all this doom-o-graphic scaremongering, though I enjoyed reading "America alone", as I reckon you did ;-)

Postponing the first child is the main reason for lower fertility rates in the Netherlands. Now you might find that "immoral" or "hedonistic" or whatever, even go so far as to describe it as a cult of death, but demographers ascribe it to the simple fact that more women have a chance to follow a higher education and work for a few years before their first one (of 1.75) is born.

Is it hedonistic of them to use the opportunity to go to university and work a few years before giving birth? Do these people subscribe to a "cult of death" just by doing that? Perhaps you should try to talk to my wife and find out about hedonism and even scarier European stuff ;-)

I don't know if you've ever visited Holland, but it is among the most densely populated places on earth. It would truly be a blessing - to use the religious parlance perhaps somewhat irreverently - if the NL population would kindly drop by a few million. This was the opinion of many sensible people (yes, christians included. Some of the elder generation vividly remembered the times when the clergy would come by and use every psychological means necessary to press women into another pregnancy, often leading to death while giving birth to number 9 or so. Perhaps you'd applaud the "un-hedonistic" practices of those days?).

But now, thnx to political correctness one is immediately branded a racist when you give but the slightest impression of thinking that Holland might be a bit overcrowded. Of course these folks have also added the typical banker's "argument", that we must breed like rabbits to "maintain our current economy". So that's the baby-boomer argument, used by bankers, telling us to pay for their numbers and early pension; breed for economy's sake; or face mass immigration.

While all we have to do is stop Muslim immigration and outlaw as far as possible Islam as a criminal organization.

Kind regards from Amsterdam,

Sagunto

Equality and Human Rights Commission head Trevor Phillips said the findings were “alarming”.

No, what's alarming is that the non-entity Phillips, who has enjoyed a lucrative career purely because of his race and his Marxist connections, is still taken seriously when he comments on a situation he and his comrades bear most responsibility for. Powell saw the disaster coming forty years ago, while Phillips has spent every one of those forty years determinedly making the disaster worse. Phillips should be put on trial for treason with the rest of New Labour, not given the chance to air his fatuous and dishonest views in our national media.

@atheling

Listen, I don't want mass immigration either. I have repeated over and over again that I want SELECTIVE, careful immigration and demand integration to the host culture.

If that's what you want, you still fail to grasp the problem. Immigration must be reversed, not made "selective", if either Europe or the US is to have any chance of maintaining its status as a white nation. "Demanding" integration is not realistic: conservatives solve problems by not creating them in the first place. One avoids the problem of integration by not letting immigration happen. In the end, intelligent, hard-working immigrants are more harmful than unintelligent, lazy ones, because the intelligent, hard-working immigrants will move into politics, big business and the judiciary and corrupt them for their own ends.

@ Armor

"Together we will kick the muslims (and sikhs, buddists, animists and so on) out of Europe".

If I agree to help you, do you agree to leave my British-based Polish pole dancers alone, and start the forced expulsion process with kappert?

Again, unlike the Poles and Czechs, who have a decent country to return home to, people from Bangladesh, Somalia, India, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Yemen and so forth, are not going to ever go back home. That's because, no matter how much the pound falls and the UK's economy hits the skids, it will always be better for them in the UK than in their home countries-- even without the extra welfare benefits in the UK (which they receive in high numbers). So they stay in the UK.

And since these immigrant populations have much higher fertility rates-- average of 4-6 kids per couple for e.g. Bangladeshi, Somali or Sierra Leonean families-- compared to British white couples, who maybe have one child, this portends a massive demographic change in Britain. You see a similar situation taking place in Canada, USA and Australia, even if the specific groups may vary.

What too many Western countries have failed to realize, is that you can't support massive immigration when you have a welfare state as well as the native population having passed the "demographic transition." These kinds of birth rate differentials always lead to nastiness, like they have in Kosovo and Lebanon-- you have to preserve some kind of demographic stability, which the UK, Canada, Australia and the USA (all with dismally sub-replacement fertility for the native-born population) have failed to do.

Again, as I wrote in my previous post, it's fine to have transient drops in fertility to sub-replacement levels since they correct themselves after a generation as values change and population stabilizes, but you can't open your doors to mass-immigration in the process. Japan is sub-replacement but not replacing itself with people from the outside, it's just going to wait out the TFR > 2.1 phase until the culture becomes more pro-natalist after a generation. So Japan's population will stabilize without demographic upheaval and large-scale ethnic replacement, as is happening in the UK, Canada, Australia, Sweden and the USA, for example.

I just don't think the UK will ever catch on to this. It's unbelievable that all the major parties-- the whole LibLabCon bunch-- want to bring Turkey into the EU, since Turkey's labor force would just about instantly flood half of Europe's countries and irrevocably change their demographics, to become Muslim-majority. Even the French and German governments think this would be a dumb idea. If the British government (not to mention those of Canada, the USA and Australia, who really have no business in the matter) so urgently wants Turkey to be in the EU, I say to them, they should be the first to fling open their doors to Turkish labor, if they think this is a good thing. They should at least put their money where their mouth is, otherwise they're hypocrites who deserve no respect.

There's another crucial difference between the Poles and other immigrants to the UK-- almost all of the Poles are going back home, while the millions of people streaming in from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa, SE Asia and elsewhere, don't have a place to go back to, so they stay in Britain.

Even before the UK's recent economic downturn, the vast majority of Poles would work about a year (occasionally a bit more), earn some extra money, then just return right back home to Poland. That already rapid return process has recently been accelerated even further-- as the pound's value has fallen relative to the zloty (let alone vs. the Euro), Poles don't want to stay in Britain anymore or come there in the first place. It's just not worth their time or money to go and work in a distant, foreign country like the UK, away from friends and family, unless they can make big gains in the process.

In fact, the only reason some Poles now remain in the UK, is that they're able to claim British child benefits for all their children *back home in Poland*, which indeed does mightily irritate British citizens. But overall, most Poles have little drive to remain in or go to the United Kingdom.

The pound/zloty exchange and Britain's decent economy were the drivers for the arrival of the Poles in the past 5 years. Since both of those factors have now changed negatively-- the pound having dropped, and the UK economy on the skids-- almost all Poles are now going back home to Poland, or resettling and working in a different EU country in some cases.

Germany and Austria are both common destinations for Poles and other Eastern Europeans who've worked in the UK but don't return home outright, partly because of their own established Polish communities, partly also due to their job opportunities. I worked an engineering stint in Wiesbaden, in central Germany, a few months ago and encountered quite a few Polish workers, with impressive language and technical skills. Most of them in that particular troupe, as I learned, had already worked in Britain for about a year-and-a-half, but now they and nearly all of their Polish compatriots (as well as Czechs, Lithuanians, Slovaks and others) were leaving the UK.

Interestingly, while Germany has its own demographics issues, it's not nearly as disastrously bad there as in the UK or, say, Canada or Australia outside the EU, as I've found it while working there so much over the years. There are a large number of Germans who've left Germany in the past 5 years, but the vast majority of them just go to Austria, Switzerland, or Tirolean Italy and east Belgium (which are German-speaking) and so stay within the same basic Central European "Germanic sphere" in close contact with friends and relatives back in Germany. The very fact that this flow is largely one way-- hundreds of thousands of Germans leaving Germany for Austria and Switzerland, but very few in the other direction-- does indeed show that people are fed up with Berlin's ridiculous taxation schemes. Still, things will probably improve in Germany once the people get rid of the incompetent Angela Merkel. In Germany, quite unlike in the UK and Australia (let alone the USA), I detected a noticeable strain of nationalism that is openly Islamophobic and interested in preserving the country's demographic integrity, even among elites, something which I never find in North America, the UK or Australia since their own regime changed over. The Germans just don't like Muslims, period, and finally, they're not so bothered by PC to make their opinions known. Germany does have an enormous Polish/Czech/Slovak population which increases rapidly every year-- more than any other EU country-- but is able to absorb them due to the longstanding historical ties that Germany (as well as Austria) have had over centuries with the East, stemming from the Prussian and Austro-Hungarian Empires.

In contrast, Britain's own imperial experience is largely in Africa and the Indian Subcontinent-- half of India having been under British rule-- as well as SE Asia to a more limited extent. So, unsurprisingly, the vast majority of immigrants to Britain stem from these countries. Even during the height of the Polish labor flow a couple years ago, the numbers of Poles were exaggerated-- over 3/4 of the immigrants to the UK coming from the Subcontinent and Africa. (With many of the rest coming from Middle Eastern countries such as Yemen or Turkey.) Now, the percentages from these countries are even higher as the Poles stay home.

@ atheling

This particular Briton prefers (limited) immigration from Poland than from Africa or Pakistan for purely religious and cultural reasons.I have a Polish friend whose father is Polish and mother is French.He's set to visit France in a couple of weeks time, and I've already suggested he visit Armor's part of the world while he's over there.He knows about Armor, so he asked me why I would make this suggestion.I told him that it was my understanding that white asparagus is coming into season over there soon, and his favourite vegetable is, you've guessed it, asparagus. 

"The British population obviously prefers immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan. For racial reasons."

I doubt that's the reason.  Of course, there may be a few Britons who feel that way, but I am inclined to think that they prefer the Poles because they are mainly Christian and not Muslim.  The social, moral and political landscape of Britain would not be as radically changed if Britain imported Christian immigrants vice Muslim.

For a person who is a racist, you sure seem to lack discriminatory powers, which is a function of the intellect.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

• " the indigenous population’s “sense of alarm and resentment” over immigration."

• " Trevor Phillips said the findings were “alarming”

What is alarming to a normal person is the population replacement organized by the government and its BBC. It would be alarming if the British were not alarmed by that. But we should not be alarmed at reading that the BBC and Trevor Phillips say it is alarming that British people are alarmed. The BBC and Trevor Philipps are paid to say things like that. Does Trevor mean that people should not be alarmed, or does he mean that popular alarm shows there is really something wrong with the immigration policy? It doesn't matter. He just says what he is expected to say, even if it is meaningless.

" alarm and resentment over immigration "

It sounds like a accusation of immigrant-hating, when in fact, the malevolence comes from the BBC. Why do they support the replacement policy? There is certainly popular resentment over the treachery of government, but immigrants are not made to suffer for it. On the other hand, British people are made to suffer from the consequences of the BBC's ideology.

“One reason politicians can debate [immigration] again, perhaps, is that the latest wave of immigration is different. (...) they are white."

It is absurd to say that immigration from Europe is the same as immigration from the third-world.

" the issues of race and immigration have been separated once more.”

The British population obviously prefers immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan. For racial reasons. But I think Britain should refuse mass immigration even from European countries. Somehow, it seems that what began as propaganda for the displacement of the whites has now led to supporting mass immigration from other white countries. Now, a white person can be accused of racism for discriminating against another white person!