Are We All Nazis Now?

From the desk of Paul Belien on Fri, 2007-10-26 23:35

One of the greatest injustices to the victims of racism, and in particular the holocaust, is the trivialization of it. One does not have to agree with the Dutch “Islamophobic” anti-immigration politicians Geert Wilders or Rita Verdonk, but what kind of person writes something like: “Whenever I see people such as Wilders and Verdonk I think of the Kristallnacht! The moment the Jews were rounded up...”?

People who write such things do not care about the suffering of the Jews. They merely abuse the Nazi crimes for their own petty political objectives. The example quoted above comes from the Dutch correspondent of the far-left Belgian blog Yelloman. This blogger is an intolerant, immoral Stalinist activist. The politicians in the European Parliament, however, are hardly any better.

On January 27, 2005, the European Parliament voted a resolution “on remembrance of the Holocaust, anti-semitism and racism.”

Near the end of the resolution, the EP states (items 6-8) [the bold-face being our addition] that it:

6. Welcomes the declared intention of the Luxembourg Presidency to restart the stalled discussions on the proposal for a Council Framework Decision on combating Racism and Xenophobia, and urges the Council to reach agreement on a ban on incitement to racial and religious hatred throughout the EU while preserving legitimate free speech;
 
7. Invites the [European] Commission to start a review of the application of the Racial Equality Directive 2000/43/EC aimed at strengthening European Union anti-discrimination measures and to organise a major conference involving all the actors concerned, in particular political representatives, public institutions at a national, regional and local level, and NGOs and associations active in this field;
 
8. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the [European] Council [=the meeting of the European heads of state and government], the Commission and the governments and parliaments of the [EU] Member States and candidate countries.

 
If we read the “Council Framework Decision on combating Racism and Xenophobia”, we find that it imposes an end to free speech:

[T]his proposal provides for the approximation of the laws and regulations of the Member States regarding offences involving racism and xenophobia. Racist and xenophobic behaviour must constitute an offence in all Member States and be punishable by effective, proportionate and dissuasive penalties. [...] Racism and xenophobia will mean belief in race colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin as a factor determining aversion to individuals.
 
Certain forms of conduct outlined below committed for a racist or xenophobic purpose will be punishable as criminal offences:
* public incitement to violence or hatred;
* public insults [e.g. the Danish cartoons] or threats;
* public condoning of genocide or crimes against humanity as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court;
* public dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material containing expressions of racism and xenophobia;
* directing of a racist or xenophobic group (by “group” is meant a structured organisation consisting of at least two persons established for a specific period).
 
[…] In all cases, racist or xenophobic motivation will be considered as an aggravating circumstance in determining the penalty to be applied to the offence.

 
Since 2005 the governments of the European Union member states are persecuting – on the basis of the above Council Framework Decision and the above EP Holocaust Resolution – people who express concern about the Islamization of their countries.

As the British conservative philosopher and author Roger Scruton said in a speech in Antwerp last year, the charge of racism and xenophobia in the EU countries “has become the equivalent of a charge of heresy in medieval Europe, of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts, or of ‘deviationism” in the Stalinist state.” However, as Mr. Scruton pointed out, “we have a duty to brave the charge of ‘racism and xenophobia’, and to discuss every aspect of immigration.”

Mr. Scruton made his remarks in a speech to the Vlaams Belang party – a party which has been accused of racism and xenophobia by the Belgian authorities. “There are many people in this country,”Mr. Scruton added, “who believe that I should not talk to you at all, and that by doing so I become tainted with the very charge that has been levelled at you: the charge of racism and xenophobia. By talking about this charge, I hope to deflect it. I am neither racist nor xenophobic; I am in the habit of assuming that the same is true of others, until they have shown evidence to the contrary; and I am glad that a Party exists that is willing to brave this charge, in order to discuss the problem that is in the minds of all ordinary Europeans today.”

When the EP Resolution of January 25, 2005, came before the European Parliament it was almost unanimously approved with 617 votes to 0 with 10 abstentions. Among the ten abstentions were the three Vlaams Belang members of the EP. One of the latter, Frank Vanhecke, the VB chairman, said he feared that the resolution would be used against parties who “fight for European values and European peoples.” Mr. Vanhecke was right. Today we see how this resolution exploits the Holocaust in order to introduce support for legislation silencing the peoples of Europe and submitting them to radical Islamist ideologies that are paving the way for new Holocaust.

The Egyptian-born Jewish author Bat Ye’or (a pseudonym meaning “daughter of the Nile”) and her family were expelled from Egypt in the 1950s because they were Jewish. She, too, is worried about the trivialisation of the Holocaust by the left and the far-left for the advancement of its own political aims. When recently she expressed her worries at a public meeting she was insulted and called… a racist. A lawyer who was present says that though Bat Ye’or was treated most disgracefully “few people reacted. People are not ready to fight the new anti-Semitism.” The Europeans did not fight the previous anti-Semitism in the 1930s, and they are not fighting the present one. Europe did not prevent the previous holocaust. It does not seem able to prevent the coming holocaust either. And maybe, paradoxically, feelings of guilt for the horrors of the past are preventing some people from doing so.

As Roger Scruton says it needs courage to brave the charges of racism, xenophobia or neo-Nazism in order to speak out. This courage is what Europe lacks.

Unfortunately, some Americans realize that Europe is in for a disaster but seem to think that it is only getting what it deserves. Europe has to be destroyed by the Muslims as a punishment for the Nazis’ crimes during WWII. Last year, I was invited to speak about the situation in Europe at one of America’s major universities. For two days my host subjected me to the most terrible accusations. He told me I would have to suffer for what my ancestors had done to his ancestors. “One cannot respect the Europeans,” he said. “America should have nuked Europe during WWII instead of Japan. If ever things turn nasty in Europe I will make sure that neither you nor any white European will be allowed to seek shelter in the US. I would rather invite the Muslims in than you and your lot, because one can respect Muslims but not Europeans.” Since my host was Jewish and had lost his family in the war I could understand his anger, but not his short-sightedness. I think he did not mean all he said, though it was an upsetting experience and one of the most unpleasant moments in my life.

Why do I mention all this today? Last week almost 80 people from 15 European countries, plus sympathizers from the US, Canada and Israel, convened in the European Parliament in Brussels to discuss a common strategy to fight Islamism. This important and historical event, which shows that there still is a fighting spirit among some Europeans, has been criticized by Charles Johnson, the owner of Little Green Footballs, an influential American neo-conservative website, because members of the Vlaams Belang were present. Though the VB did not organize the conference, it provided an important part of the logistics and the security of those attending. Johnson says the VB is a neo-Nazi party. His arguments are:
(1)    that the party abstained in the European Parliament from approving the above mentioned Holocaust resolution;
(2)    that early this month the party organized a “white supremacist” demonstration;
(3)    that Nazi skinheads applaud the party;
(4)    that neo-Nazis link to VB videos.

Instead of being able to write about last week’s meeting I have been busy answering emails from friends who, because Charles Johnson is such “a respected anti-Jihadist,” fear that they have been fooled by the VB. The issue is hotly debated on American blogs (here is a detailed account for those interested).

There is, however, no beef to Charles Johnson’s allegations.

(1) The VB was right regarding the Holocaust Resolution. It is a disgrace that Christian-Democrats and other European mainstream Conservatives do not dare to oppose the Left’s abuse of the Holocaust. The VB should be applauded for its courage, rather than branded neo-Nazi.

vjwoptocht.jpg

(2) The VB did not organise a “white supremacist” demonstration. Johnson’s website links to a picture of a group of people carrying a white supremacist flag and a number of Flemish flags. He claims this picture was taken earlier this month and says there are VB flags on the picture. I do not see any VB flag on the picture. Johnson got this picture from the Yelloman blog, a far-left Belgian website – the very same website which wrote about Geert Wilders and Rita Verdonk “Whenever I see people such as Wilders and Verdonk I think of the Kristallnacht! The moment the Jews were rounded up...”

Interestingly, Yelloman does not mention when and where the picture with the flags was taken [update, Nov. 1, 2007: here it is]. It is unclear where Johnson got his information about a demo earlier this month, but certainly not from the Yelloman link he refers to. There is also something fishy about the picture. The Flemish lion flag which we see on the picture is the official flag of the Flemish regional government. This lion has a red tongue and red claws (the three colours of the flag – black, yellow and red – refer to the tricoloured Belgian flag). The flag of the Flemish secessionist movement (which is the flag VB people ALWAYS use) has a black tongue and black claws.

Let us take a more detailed look at Yelloman’s article. It is entitled “Nazi symbolism and Vlaams Belang.” It claims that VB people are fond of symbols like the Celtic cross, the triskel and the swastika.

It is true that the Celtic cross is a popular symbol in Flanders. It was placed on the gravestones of Flemish soldiers who fell during the First (not the Second) World War. The Flemings used to harbour a lot of sympathy for the Irish and the 1916 Irish Rebellion. The Celtic cross, however, is also used by so-called “neo-pagan” followers of the French anti-American and anti-Christian philosopher Alain de Benoist. Though there may be individual VB members who sympathize with de Benoist, this is not the position of the VB. Yelloman also claims that the German Wehrmacht used to paint the Celtic cross on its army barracks during WW II. I have never heard that argument before (and I doubt whether it is true). Moreover, the Wehrmacht was the regular German army. Its symbol is the German cross, which the Bundeswehr still uses today.

The triskel is another Celtic symbol, which is used by the separatist movement in (the French province of) Brittany. Yelloman refers to a local VB official who has a triskel on his weblog. Yelloman claims that it is a symbol of apartheid because the far-right South African whites use the triskel as their symbol. The latter is something I have never heard before either. It may be true or not, I do not know.

Finally the swastika. Yelloman refers to one Bjorn Roose, another local VB member, who last January opposed an EU proposal (initiated by the German government) to ban the swastika everywhere in Europe. Roose criticized this as an example of Political Correctness gone wild in Germany. He argued that the EU proposal is ridiculous because the swastika is an old Hindu symbol, which can also be found on medieval paintings and on ornaments in medieval cathedrals. According to the EU legislation, Roose wrote, these swastikas will have to be removed. He wondered whether the EU will soon ban the crucifix because the Ku Klux Klan ties its victims to a cross.

(3 & 4) Johnson’s two last charges against the VB are that Nazi skinheads applaud the VB and neo-Nazis link to VB sites. During the past days several far-left and even pro-Islamist groups have linked to Johnson’s website. Does this prove that Johnson is a leftist and a pro-Islamist? Yes, it does if we judge Johnson by his own standards. Friends tell me that I should not say that Charles Johnson is an Islamist who disguises himself as one of their adversaries. But, hey, why should we not judge a man by his own standards? Because we are decent and responsible people.

 

According to Charles Johnson......

Submitted by darrinh on Mon, 2007-10-29 04:42.

comments made by Robert Spencer during his speech at the counter-jihad conference recently held in Brussels, Robert Spencer would qualifiy as a "whtie supremicist". Johnson has gone a Stalinist purge and denouncement of anybody who he thinks is a "nazi, racist or white supremicist". See posts and threads at the LGF weblog, otherwise known as Neocon central.

The tone of Johnson and his flying monkeys differs little from sites like revolutionaryleft.com or DailyKOS.com. Hysterically denouncing anybody who dares to defend their nation, handwringing about 'teh evil nazis!!11!!' when the reality is, neo-nazis and their ilk wield no political power, nor will they ever. All the neocon knee-jerking is doing is helping along the Islamic/leftist propaganda machinery.

(Robert Spencer, 34th minute of speech) ...I don't come here very often, but I have been shown .... around Antwerp, around Brussels and the buildings that go back to the 16th century. The history ... the culture, these things we don't have.

I grew up in Charlestown South Carolina in the United States, which is a town where we are very proud of ourselves because there is some buildings that date from the early 19th century and so what we have here is the visible monuments and I suppose if you live here its easy to start to take them for granted.

We have the visilble monuments of the greatest civilisation the world has ever known. And the greatest civilsiation that the world has ever known is not just manifest, although it is manifest those artwork and the music, remember music is forbidden in islam law. Mohammad said that in hell satan will pour molten lead into the ears of those who listen to music, Beethoven,Mozart, Bac..... molten lead....

[...]

Nobody had any hesitation, well actually a lot of people did, there were many people who had no hestitation of saying during the cold war that the western way of life was superior to the Soviet Communist model, you had radio free Europe, you had radio liberty, you had voice of america,beaming into communist countries the message that the way of life that was offered by people the Communists were out to destroy was superior and they ought to come around to the other side.

@ darrih

Submitted by lmhough1 on Mon, 2007-10-29 12:37.

I am confused. In what way do Robert Spencer's comments indicate white supremacy?

While I do not agree with Charles Johnson's witchhunt over at LGF (at least to the extreme that he has gone), your dragging Robert Spencer into it seems rather forced. He has fortunately stayed above this fray, and it seems best to keep it that way. We have shot ourselves in the foot. No reason to extend the damage higher.

@ lmhough1

Submitted by darrinh on Mon, 2007-10-29 13:55.

Its Johnson who has shot himself in the foot. with a bazooka. point blank. The excerpt of RS was for illustrative purposes, Johnson has been kicking people off LGF for saying less.

@NC304

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2007-10-28 20:33.

Don't know.Perhaps Yitzhak or Armor could help you with that one... 

Kiss and makeup!

Submitted by truth serum on Sun, 2007-10-28 19:19.

@crawdad

I too have looked on this tit for tat with utter dismay between Charles J. of LGF and Paul Belien of BJ for I respect and admire both.  I feel sort of like a kid caught in the crossfire of a parents argument.

 

Charles has been acting like a lefty and using their tactics...sorry Charles.  It is worrysome.  However, I do believe he has a valid point in advising caution.  If VB and SD still do adhere to racist polices then they will do more to hurt the 'cause' then help it.

 

Being American, and in America, it is hard to gauge European politics.  I think it would be easy to make a mistake and assume because some members of ones party go off the deep end or have radical views that they are representative of the party as a whole.  For instance...thinking that the women of Code Pink represent the Democrats...or some rebel KKK'er calling himself a Republican.

 

What really matters is what the leadership does in representing the party as a whole.  They should denounce radicals from the get go in order to totally disassociate their party from them.

 

Think about it.  Republicans are upset with the Democratic party right now because they are not doing that...they are not denouncing Code Pink, nor the Dailykos.  Because they are not, those people are defining the Democratic party...and I believe ultimately they will bring it down, for normal everyday Democrats are not like those extreme people.

 

An additional thought comes to mind...the Democratic party was THE racist party before the civil rights era...and now would be considered minority advocats.  So...parties can change...without changing their name.

 

So...Charles if you are reading this...do some more research and for goodness sakes consider your sources.  And Paul...keep your head up...and not fall to insults in defending yourself and the VB. 

 

In other words will you two please kiss and make up?

 

 

@truth serum

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2007-10-28 19:48.

"I think it would be easy to make a mistake and assume because some members of ones party go off the deep end or have radical views that they are representative of the party as a whole. For instance...thinking that the women of Code Pink represent the Democrats...or some rebel KKK'er calling himself a Republican."

However, you fail to realize that those "radicals" or "deep end" members hold VISIBLE influence over the Democratic Party, as evidenced by Michael Moore sitting next to Jimmy Carter at the DNC Convention in 2004. You would never see a lunatic fringe "KKK" member in that position in the RNC Convention. BTW, did you know that Democratic Senator Robert Byrd is an EX KKK member? Here is a quote from him during WWII regarding the military desegregation of black servicemen:

"Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

You never hear a peep from those on the Left regarding his racism, do you? Why? Because he's a DEMOCRAT!

home

Submitted by gryphon on Sun, 2007-10-28 16:40.

Its all very complicated. You shouldn't feel so much anger because its not going to do you any good. You have made your choices. You are part of a great thing which is the experiment of democracy and freedom to choose who you are. At the same time you need tradition or you will feel a disrespect for your ancestors and yourself. I just happen to believe that all cultures are not equal. Life is cruel and I don't want to go into a lot of rubbish about Chrisitanity or Judaism. Take care, Vinegar Joe.

calm down

Submitted by gryphon on Sun, 2007-10-28 15:34.

You are an angry man, Vinegar Joe. I live in Shanghai and want to live in Europe or USA like everybody else. Okay. What percentage of people in your neighborhood are of European heritage? Mainly.

Home

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sun, 2007-10-28 16:05.

My home is in Nuenen, the Netherlands. I'm on assignment here in Asia. In the Netherlands, my son is the only non-blond in his class. I know of no non-Europeans in our neighborhood other than my family.
People here on this site are complaining about being associated with Nazis and then start complaining about race-mixing and how their genes are being polluted. It sounds more like 1937 than 2007.......have they learned nothing in the past 60 years?

It's one thing to be trying to stop the spread of Islam and it's quite another to slide right over the edge and start ranting about Jewish conspiracies trying to pollute the genes of the Master Race.

And they wonder why there's a serious lack of understanding between Americans and Europeans?

@ Vinegar Joe

Submitted by Armor on Sun, 2007-10-28 23:27.

Vinegar Joe said: "People here on this site are complaining about being associated with Nazis and then start complaining about race-mixing and how their genes are being polluted."

Here again, you are using nazism and the Jewish genocide as weapons against Europeans, to support you idea that we should accept our disappearance. This is exactly what I was saying earlier. Are you doing it in reaction to my claim that the Jewish genocide is used as a weapon? It reminds me of the muslims who turn to violence to protest our accusations that they tend to be violent people.

"It's one thing to be trying to stop the spread of Islam"

As far as I'm concerned, islam is not a big problem. I think the Arab crime rate, the agressivity of young Arab immigrants, and the devastation of our schools by their children have little to do with Islam.

"and it's quite another to slide right over the edge and start ranting about Jewish conspiracies trying to pollute the genes of the Master Race."

It is not a secret conspiracy and it is not only Jewish, although the Jews are prominent in this. The western media carry 24 hour a day propaganda for immigration, and increasingly, for racial mixing, even though most people are opposed to immigration. If you deny that, I can only call you a liar.

Europeans who oppose immigration do not claim to be a master race, they just want to continue their existence peacefully, and they want to be succeeded on the earth by their children, not by immigrants. But you tell us that this standpoint makes us no better than the nazis who murdered the Jews! And you even enroll your Chinese wife to help you with your emotional blackmail. This is dishonest.

I think that conservatives who stand against immigration should launch their own websites and stop contributing to the success of sites like LGF or Frontpage.

"And they wonder why there's a serious lack of understanding between Americans and Europeans?"

What do you mean? We have exactly the same problem in the USA and in Western Europe. In both places, most people don't want to be replaced by immigrants. But mass immigration continues, and it seems every small town is now affected.

@ Vingear Joe

Submitted by Ethnocentrist on Sun, 2007-10-28 19:39.

Are we to assume, Vinegar Joe, that your choices should be accepted while others who would like to maintain a "blond" class room (your words) are unacceptable? Why is that? You've made your choice, Vinegar Joe. Many people of European nations do NOT want their countries so drastically changed. First, there was no referendum on this master plan for mass migration. The European people did not and do not want such things yet it continues, unabated.

You say you are on assignment in Asia and your wife is Chinese. Ask your wife on how warm a welcome both of you and your children will get in China. Same for Japan, Korea etc. I'm positive it will be much worse than any European's reaction. Ask her the likelihood of a non-Chinese being able to immigrate into China? Or non-Japanese or non-Korean in the respective nations. Many people of many different countries, not just European, do not want a complete upheaval of their societies thanks to this mass migration and government/MSM sponsored pan-mixia. People like to associate with others that are similar to them. This is natural. You are an out lier, which is OK, though do not expect EVERYONE to coming running to your version of normality. Nor should you browbeat others for wanting to marry within their own culture. You've made your decision as you saw fit, please allow others to do so as well without dusting off the ghosts Nazi Germany as their "secret" reason in not following your lead.

P.S. I'm not blond, though I am European.

@ Vinegar Joe

Submitted by gryphon on Sun, 2007-10-28 13:59.

1) What is the percentage of minorities living in your neighborhood?

2) Do you own your house?

3) Do you send your children to a public school?

@gryphon

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sun, 2007-10-28 14:32.

Minorities???? I'm a minority! I'm half Jewish half Scotch-Irish. My wife is Chinese and our kids are therefore mixed.
We own our own house.
We send our kids to public school.

Should I be worried Europeans are going to go batshit again and my family end up on the bottom of some mass grave because we are polluting the genes of the oh so racially and culturally superior Europeans? Why don't you pass some laws outlawing my family.......you already have a nice precedent.....just update the wording on the Nuremberg Laws and you'll be all set. Maybe a conference is called for....I've heard Wannsee has a villa that would be perfect.

@ Vinegar Joe

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2007-10-28 13:29.

In doubtful expectation of  a coherent response from Amsterdamsky I'd add a large jug of moonshine to that list of yours if I were you.

Should be interesting

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sun, 2007-10-28 06:29.

To Armor and Amsterdamsky:  Can ya'll tell us more about European genes, the white race and race-mixing? 

Let me get some popcorn and a couple of Cokes. This should be both  entertaining and enlightening. 

traditional European values vs. atheism

Submitted by gryphon on Sun, 2007-10-28 02:33.

A few years ago there was a dust-up in the US over the Mel Gibson film, The Passion of Christ. Some Jews, including Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, attempted to censor the movie because they claimed it was anti-Semitic. But atheists, like Frank Rich of the NY Times and Christopher Hitchens, were/are more virulently anti-Christian, to the point of foam flecked dementia. All sorts of terrible things were going to happen if the movie were shown. There would be mobs of helot-christian fundamentalists and so forth. Assuming they are not Jewish (Johnson sounding a bit goy), these fellows at LGF may be transferring some of this Christian-baiting to the VB. Are people at LGF deeply conflicted? The Left doesn't have a monopoly here. Roger Scruton has a lot to say about it in An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Culture.

Libertarians?

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2007-10-28 03:53.

Are the people at LGF mainly Libertarians? There is an virulent anti Christian strain running through American Libertarianism (which I think is just another form of libertinism).

LGF people are NOT anti-religoius or anti-Chrisitian

Submitted by lmhough1 on Sun, 2007-10-28 13:29.

Totally agree with Crawdad's comment. It would be absolutely false to characterize LGF as anti-Christian site. Suggesting this would be as ignorant, or even more ignorant, than the suggestion that the European right are all Nazis.

It would be the opposite of the truth. LGF comments frequently deride Europe for its secularism and its efforts to crush all public manifestations of religious belief (except Islam of course, which gets protected treatment). Many LGF members are seem to be right wing Christians.

It seems nearly impossible to define LGF'ers in any facile way. I've been trying to do so for the last 15 minutes, and couldn't.

The one thing they most have in common is that they are proud to be American, true believers in the greatness of their country, and despise the "leftards" for their perceived anti-Americanism and their unwillingness to defend America. 9/11 more or less defines the beginnings of LGF.

From this follows most of their stance. They are strongly anti Islamic for obvious reasons, and pro Israel due to their belief that Israel is a true ally of the US, in contrast to... for example.... most European countries except for England.

As LGF grew, it drew in other members who where looking for
-an anti-immigration site
-an anti-ethnic site (hence the irony of the past weeks' spat)
-anti-Democratic Party site.

So it has attracted a broad group of followers.

Still, nearly all LGF topics are either something to do with Islam, the Israeli-Palestinian war or something to do with idiotic left wing behaviour and hate for America (for example the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs).

The membership is EXTREMELY diverse. They have some virulent anti-abortionists who frequently get into angry debates with members who have the opposite view. There are religious jews and (I don't doubt it) white supremacists there. Many women comment there (unlike here).

Charles usually keeps a heavy hand on the more extreme elements. Blatantly racist sentiment and exhortations to violence lead to pretty quick banning.

Mostly he has done a great job with LGF, but really I think he has now made a serious mistake.

Libertarians...

Submitted by crawdad on Sun, 2007-10-28 08:01.

Atheling, your comment about U.S. libertarians is as ignorant as many statements by Americans about the political scene in Europe.

U.S. Libertarians are deucedly hard to classify - they (we) come in many different varieties. Some are Greens in masquerade, some are anarchists, some are warmed-over hippies, and some are what I call Smokestack Libertarians (primarily interested in deregulation and lower taxation). Calling them all libertine is as dumb as calling all Flemish Separatists Nazis-in-waiting.

The primary points of agreement among these various flavors are distrust of the Two Big Parties as they exist, a desire for a smaller government overall, and a desire for lower taxation as well as more government openness and accountability to the people.

Also, I would definitely NOT say that LGF is a libertarian hangout by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn't say that LGF has ANY party-affiliation as such, though I think it is safe to say that the membership is heavily Republican in makeup.

It would also be inaccurate to say that LGF is anti-Christian at all.
As for American Libertarianism, the Left Libertarians could be characterized as such, but there are a great many Right-leaning libertarians who are quite devout in their faiths.

I think we should all be a bit sparing in the usage of broad brushes, strawmen, and false dilemmas.

We are NOT faced with a choice between Islamo-fascism and a Nazi revival, nor does one bad apple spoil the whole barrel. That sort of thinking leads to the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

@crawdad

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2007-10-28 16:31.

I didn't label all libertarians as libertines. I meant that just those who are anti Christian are - the "virulent strain".

I never said that LGF was anti Christian either. I ASKED if they were mainly Libertarians

I suggest that you re-read my comment and question, then realize that you misconstrued my comment, and if you had any sense of decency, you would APOLOGIZE for calling me ignorant for simply asking a question.

If your rudeness is any example of libertarianism, then I don't think much of you people.

@ atheling re: LGF

Submitted by lmhough1 on Sun, 2007-10-28 17:16.

Atheling, in response to your comment, the people at LGF are mostly NOT libertarians, although a few of that persuasion are mixed in there .

LGF is virulently against Ron Paul, which is where the libertarians would to be going these days. Along with the Stormfront people, the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and the usual crowd of crazies. Which is why the Paul candidacy has been totally discredited, something that Paul supporters do not seem to understand.

The more I have thought about my difficulty defining the LGF readership, the more it seems to me that this site is basically defined as a response to 9/11. Most of its politics (who is "good", who is "bad") follow from this.

Nearly everything else there comes from the side-issues of those who have become active at LGF.

Celtic Cross as percieved in USA...

Submitted by crawdad on Sat, 2007-10-27 22:27.

First, I'd like to say that I think Charles has made a mistake and has gotten into a situation from which he cannot back down without losing face.

As for the Celtic Cross - in the USA it is a symbol widely used by the Ku Klux Klan.

When I was growing up in Louisiana, I was told that it was meant to symbolize the last thing a black person would see when thrown down a well - four hooded klansmen looking down at him.

This symbol, regardless of any innocent past significance, will cause an instantly hostile reaction in much of the USA, and deservedly so. Same goes for whatever non-toxic ancient significance that may have been attached to the swastika in Hindu or other cultures.

Once any symbol or word has been expropriated by a group, the meaning changes, and a symbol may be interpreted differently in different areas.

Your host is a moron...

Submitted by Andrew Ian Dodge on Sat, 2007-10-27 22:05.

I would rather invite the Muslims in than you and your lot, because one can respect Muslims but not Europeans.”

Only someone at university would say something so incredibly moronic, ignorant and self-defeating. Does he not know that Muslims were complicit in the Third Reich, participated in its genocide against the Jews and furthermore continue to mourn the fact Hitler was unable to complete the final solution? Does this numbnut know anything about the vehement Jew-hatred ingrained in the very essence of Islam laid down in the Koran and the Hadiths?

Wracked with Guilt

Submitted by atheling on Sat, 2007-10-27 17:48.

"Unfortunately, some Americans realize that Europe is in for a disaster but seem to think that it is only getting what it deserves. Europe has to be destroyed by the Muslims as a punishment for the Nazis’ crimes during WWII."

The ensuing statements by the Jewish host was indeed a horrible thing to say.  It's too bad that this person could not find forgiveness in his heart - as his God does.

"The Europeans did not fight the previous anti-Semitism in the 1930s, and they are not fighting the present one. Europe did not prevent the previous holocaust. It does not seem able to prevent the coming holocaust either. And maybe, paradoxically, feelings of guilt for the horrors of the past are preventing some people from doing so."

I agree that guilt plays a large part in the paralysis among the European Left.  It certainly does among the Left in America as well.  After much pondering:

1.  The Left is mainly anti Christian.  They have rejected the Christian themes of guilt, redemption and hope.  Indeed, they have embraced atheism or agnosticism and replaced God with the State.

2.  That rejection means that they have no sense of forgiveness for the sins of the past, hence their self loathing and inability to see what's truly good about their civilization despite its shortcomings. 

3.  Their repudiation of Christianity and its achievements in their society created a vacuum, which is being replaced by totalitarianism of the State.

4.  This vacuum is also filled by their manmade "gods" of political correctness and multikulturism, which, as we see, opened the door to Islamic domination. 

 

 

Do not fall for the trap of definition.

Submitted by longun45 on Sat, 2007-10-27 16:50.

Stalinists by example are genocidal maniacs.  They kill everyone who opposes them and they use the most brutal methods to do this.  Stalinists are NAZIs. There is no difference other than nationality.

 

 

Both are thugs, thieves and truly are people worth killing.  But since that for the time being is not allowed, we will choose to laugh at them and point out that the emperor has no clothes. 

 

 

Laugh at them long and hard, make them turn red in the face.  Let them become infuriated, then take pictures and publish them.

 

Post WWII intentional destruction of white western society

Submitted by Amsterdamsky on Sat, 2007-10-27 16:24.

I completely agree with Armor.  There was an ad on TV last night showing a Dutch women biking with two half Moroccan or Turk children in the front basket.  This anti stuff is so ingrained now in the media you would be called racist if you dared show only "dutch" people in any type of television or marketing.  Dare to be Dutch.   I challenge them.

swastikas and celtic crosses

Submitted by Nataraja on Sat, 2007-10-27 16:23.

This post is just the biggest hypocrisy and unworthy of the high standards this website usually offers...Voorpost, Groenrechts, Blood and Honour, and the whole stinking ugly brown dirt pool that VB slowly tries to work itself out of (its about bloody time too), does not use the Celtic Cross as a white supremacist symbol but only as a "neo-pagan" one?
Within a few clicks one can get from the average VB website, over Voorpost, to online webstores like Fenris post-order, where one can order fine paraphernalia and a nice selection of neonazi-skinhead-music CDs...But I´m sure all those fine Blood&Honour jocks just do it for the Celtic spirit of it all...
Disrespect. We don't need this... 

BIzzare, indeed

Submitted by HenrikRClausen on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:41.

Charles appears to be a bit of a loose cannon. I never really liked Little Green Footballs, because I found too much bigotry and too little knowledge there. Great if they bring up something useful, like the bad photos last year, but not my kind of crowd to be along. I hope Charles takes a lesson from this, to check the details before firing such a stupid shot.

Gotta be careful with these lynch mobs. European academics remain my favorite crowd :)

 

The truth makes some uncomfortable

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:29.

WASHINGTON - Dutch lawmakers who visited the Guantanamo Bay military prison this week said they were offended by a testy exchange in Washington with a senior congressional Democrat.

The lawmakers said that Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, told them that "Europe was not as outraged by Auschwitz as by Guantanamo Bay."

Lantos, a Holocaust survivor, was responding to arguments that the
United States should shut down the prison, located on a U.S. naval base
in Cuba,
the lawmakers said. Mariko Peter, a member of the Dutch Green Party,
who began the exchange with Lantos, said she took notes of the remarks.

Before the Guantanamo exchange, the lawmakers had discussed a debate in the Netherlands about whether the country should maintain its 1,600 troops serving in NATO's Afghanistan operations.

"You have to help us, because if it was not for us you would now be
a province of Nazi Germany," Lantos said, according to the Dutch
lawmakers.

"The comments killed the debate," said Harry van Bommel, a member of
the Socialist Party. "It was insulting and counterproductive."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071027/ap_on_go_co/us_netherlands_guantanamo

Beautiful piece, Paul!

Submitted by HenrikRClausen on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:13.

I read it today during an informal meeting in Dansk Folkeparti. It is a beauty. Detailed, accurate, to the point. And full of concern for the people involved, both the Jews of old and the people at the receiving end of bigotry today.

If I was to put the essence into one sentence, I'd phrase it this way:

The Holocaust resolution was poison-pilled.

It takes courage and integrity to stand up against such tactics. You guys seem to have more than a fair share of both.

 

Patience will be necessary

Submitted by RS on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:02.

Patriots in Europe are going to need to be as patient with the periodic stupidities of some American Republicans and conservatives as we Americans need to be patient with similar European ignorance of American realities. (Example from The Brussels Journal: naivete with respect to Ron Paul and the Libertarian party!)

The reason for these blunders isn't hard to seek and is the same on both sides of the ocean: each's view of the other, alas, is still principally formed by mainstream media with their strong leftist, anti-patriot biases. The only antidote to these biases will be patient long-term education.

Paul Belien's defense of Vlaams Belang is a welcome contribution to this task.

using the holocaust as a pretext

Submitted by Armor on Sat, 2007-10-27 13:41.

Paul Belien said: "People who write such things do not care about the suffering of the Jews. They merely abuse the Nazi crimes for their own petty political objectives."

The Jewish genocide is mainly used by the extreme left and the media as a weapon to hurt Europe and attack European genes through the means of mass immigration. Many Jews are at the forefront of this tactic. I am sure they care about what happened to their people at the time of Hitler's Europe, but they are not soberly remembering that episode. They are using it ad nauseam to hurt us. By the way, the Jews were certainly not in the past, and are certainly not today the least race conscious people on the earth. How did they manage to retain their cohesiveness during several centuries living among Europeans? How can they accuse us of racism towards them and claim that they are exempt of any racism towards us? This is dishonest. How should we call the policy of mass immigration aimed at the white race? Although I know that not all Jews agree with it. The crime of Hitler was not racism, it was mass murder.

LGF vs European anti-Islamists

Submitted by lmhough1 on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:25.

For several nights in a row now I have watched with great dismay the evolving discussion at LGF concerning the alleged Nazi past of some European Anti-Islamists. Each night, including last night, there have been massive threads, much more active than usual, discussing this.

Although a few voices of reason are crying out there, recognizing that both groups are fighting the same battle, Charles and most of his followers have formed a sort of lynch mob against not only the the VB, but European right wing in general. Charles has been very easily banning members for a single "wrong" word, and has participated more actively in the posts than I have ever seen, whipping up the LGF members into a frenzy of Nazi accusation.

The way Charles has handled it is exactly the way that the left wingers use to demonize their enemies - make some accusations, throw out some one sided data, dismiss those who disagree as liars and racists, and ban those who disagree after that. This is exactly what LGF accuses the American left of doing to the anti-Islamists in the US, but now Charles is applying the same methods to the European Right. It is the online equivalent of what the Brussels police did to the anti-Islamization protesters on 9/11 of this year. It is all very ironic.

A few voices have cried out against this, and several of them were banned right away. Fjordman has been there, trying to combat the situation, incredibly patient, trying to answer all the accusations against the Europeans. He has been treated very badly. I've never seen something like this in the few years that I have been engaged in these blogs.

Although it seems like this situation was prompted by the involvement of the VB in the anti-Islamization meeting, Charles is (I used to think, anyway) no idiot and I can't believe that he was suddenly struck by lightning and decided to bring this up out of nowhere. There must be something else going on behind the scenes.

It almost looks like the LGF crowd are washing their hands of Europe, and that they are venting a fair amount of anti-European feeling because of the way Europe appears to have become more an enemy than a supporter of the US in the current tough times. I guess Americans can only hear so many times that they and their leaders are a bunch of idiotic murderers, and watch European demonstrations of hundreds of thousand of people burning their leaders and flags in effigy, before concluding that they no longer have any reason to support Europeans with their own troubles. It comes back to what I have been saying in the discussion on Orwellian futures on a separate thread.

It's all very bizarre, and I am greatly saddened by the sight of two groups of people fighting a very diffciult battle against the same enemies, now fighting each other.

Re: using the holocaust as a pretext

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sat, 2007-10-27 14:22.

Armor said: "The Jewish genocide is mainly used by the extreme left and the media as a weapon to hurt Europe and attack European genes through the means of mass immigration."

Better be careful.......they're also trying to impurify your Precious Bodily Fluids.

Re: using the holocaust as a pretext

Submitted by Armor on Sat, 2007-10-27 16:15.

Vinegar Joe said: "Better be careful.......they're also trying to impurify your Precious Bodily Fluids."

So you think that detecting ill intentions behind the mass immigration policy, the propaganda for race mixing, and the propensity to call any dissenter a nazi, is a sign of paranoia...
For my part, I don't believe those policies are inspired by good intentions towards me. Even though the immigration activists are not killing anyone (except indirectly, as a result of higher crime rates and the future civil wars), they are clearly implementing a geno-destruction of Europe. So, I don't really feel I need more "education" from them about the Jewish genocide. By the way, a new state-subsidized movie on the subject can be seen this week in French cinemas.

@gryphon

Submitted by Monica on Sat, 2007-10-27 13:37.

" They organize events from prayer meetings to sport clubs for socializing."

LOL.

Good point.

Are Neocons the new left?

Submitted by darrinh on Sat, 2007-10-27 13:34.

It is remarkable how neo-cons go into throes of self-flagellation whenever nationalism is mentioned. Both LGF and TimBlair.net do this. By using the same catch-cries of the left, all they are doing really is assisting the Islamic propaganda machine and ultimately, despite their best intentions, will fail in the struggle against an enemy who does not care for such niceties.

The road to hell was indeed paved by good intentions and is maintained by the reasonable man. I do not intend to be that reasonable man.

tenured radical

Submitted by gryphon on Sat, 2007-10-27 12:20.

I can't understand why your host the prof invited you other than to raise hell. Along with a lot of other things courtesy also fell victim to the soixante-huitards. At least in the US. Europeans still have this quality.

To Monica: I wouldn't necessarily rely on Wiki. I looked up the Muslim Brotherhood in 2005 and it was described thus: " They organize events from prayer meetings to sport clubs for socializing."

The picture might have been

Submitted by Emigrantus on Sat, 2007-10-27 11:49.

According to metadata saved in the picture, it has been taken on July 10th 2006. More specifically, I think it was taken in Bruges and that it's related to these guys:

http://nieuw-solidarisme.blogspot.com/2007/07/vjw-huldigt-vlaamse-helden-op-10-juli.html

In this case, it would not be doctored like I thought first, but it's fishy alright: it basically has nothing to do with the Vlaams Belang. It would be a bunch of self-proclaimed "solidarists" going to the official July 11 celebration of Bruges. In their own words, "to the dismay of many" :-)

Solidarism is a kind of socialism popular with some fringe groups on the right -- sadly still also with some in the Vlaams Belang, but in a way similar to the economic thought of the average Christian-democrat. But these guys are something else: virulently anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-Israel etcetera. So they're not even really rightwing, at least not in any way Americans would understand the term.

America,Beware!

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sat, 2007-10-27 11:47.

"It's for what Europeans have done SINCE WWII that they deserve a kick in the ass".

 

Correct! This is what drowning people do,they drag you down with them.America,beware!

State Censorship in France ?

Submitted by Bruno on Sat, 2007-10-27 11:35.

Not related to this post : I can't log on the American conservative (and fiercely anti-islamist) website Frontpagemag in France, without having my computer freeze. As a result, I have to restart my computer each time I access the the homepage of Frontpagemag, this is quite new (2 days) and seems to be the result of some hostile attack. Does anyone in Europe and particularly in France come across this problem or has it to do with an attack on Frontpagemag's server itself ?
I was wondering if it could be the result of an hostile action by the french state against websites that they could consider anti-muslim.

Not exactly

Submitted by Vinegar Joe on Sat, 2007-10-27 10:41.

"Unfortunately, some Americans realize that Europe is in for a disaster
but seem to think that it is only getting what it deserves. Europe has
to be destroyed by the Muslims as a punishment for the Nazis’ crimes
during WWII."

Wrong. It's for what Europeans have done since WWII that they deserve a kick in the ass. 

 

Is this picture a fake?

Submitted by Emigrantus on Sat, 2007-10-27 10:39.

That South-African claim might have something to do with Eugene Terreblanche's Afrikaner Weerstands Beweging, who sometimes used three 7's arranged in a circle. If I'm not mistaken, these three 7's were a reference to Christianity, rather than to paganism.

That Celtic Cross picture is definitely fishy, I already had that feeling when I saw it first on Little Green Footballs. Now that I know it was taken from the website of a Marc Spruyt-like extreme leftwing nut, I'm even more suspicious. I've seen this flag and symbol on protests of real neo nazi groupuscules; but the people who attend such meetings are largely adolescent and 20-something hooligans, skinheads and black metal fans, whose clothing and barbaric appearance reflect the contents of their heads -- with which I don't mean they're naked ;-) The group of people on this picture really look like what one would call decent and upstanding citizens, so that doesn't match either. And like you said, the official Flemish Lion would never be used on a VB meeting -- not ever. (Neither would a Celtic cross, but that's of course the thing we need to convince the guys at lgf about...) So basically, the whole setup of this picture does not make any sense.

Needless to say, because of all this "conceptual mismatch", I started looking for signs of doctoring and even though I'm not an expert, I think the Celtic cross might have been rendered on a transparent folded 3D surface and the resulting picture superimposed on some real black flag in the original picture. Or possibly even on a real flag of a different color, because the transparancy of this flag might be a bit too strong -- it would have been a crappy flag made of a very cheap fabric. Another thing that looks fishy is the folding itself, which strikes me as ungeometrical or at least over-the-top, given the edges of the flag. Finally, I can't make sense of the (very) strong on-and-off blurring of those pixels that make up the edges of the white cross. It's not related to parts of the flag being out of focus from the camera, because the flag is almost perpendicular to the camera. Could it be related to motion blur, caused by wind? Possibly. In any case, the blurring along the edges of the circle seems to switch on and off in a symmetrical fashion, with strong blurring from 3 to 6 and 9 to 12 hours, and from 12 to 1:30 and 6 to 7:30 hours. (This pattern becomes more obvious under large magnification.) The blurring of the inner-circle part of the cross itself is also patterned: left and right parts are strongly blurred, top and bottom parts not at all. On the other hand, I can't think of any reason that would have necessitated our hypothetical forger to apply blur to the picture like this...

But if it really was doctored, would a good journalist be able to find the original one?

Maybe this is the source of Johnson's opposition to the VB?

Submitted by Monica on Sat, 2007-10-27 10:10.

This is from Wiki's page on the Vlaams Belang..

"Some of the main points in the platform include:

  • Full and unconditional amnesty for people convicted for collaboration with Nazi Germany after World War II. Vlaams Belang claims that many convicts were victims of excesses by the Belgian judiciary system against Flemish nationalists. It also states that it has "equal respect" for the suffering of all the victims during the years of war and the repression afterwards, regardless of whichever side they had sided with, or of whichever side the Belgian judiciary maintained that they had sided with."

That American you spoke to

Submitted by Rob the Ugly American on Sat, 2007-10-27 09:45.

That American you spoke to is obviously not representative, but there is a sentiment growing in the US among those who are actually aware of what's happening in Europe (which is still a very small amount, because it gets no coverage in our mainstream press), that after awhile, when you do nothing about a problem, then you do kind of deserve it. I mean, it seems relatively easy (as it's been for at least the past two decades) to generate huge crowds in Europe at the drop of a hat to protest the latest problem Euro-left-elites have with US policy. At the same time, we see this constant harping on things like Guantanamo (a prison that would have been routine in Europe the last time Europeans thought they were at war), we see this attitude that anyone who doesn't believe that hard power should never be used in any circumstance is some fool, and it just seems very adolescent.

Or, to put it another way, look at Iran, where Europeans seem convinced that Bush is the driving force behind the push toward cwar, yet German technology is being used to build Iran's nuclear bomb, and the billions of dollars in annual trade Germany does with Iran helps fund the nuclear weapons program. This is a nuclear weapons program with the express intent to wipe out most of the world's remaining Jews.

Yeh, it would be a sort of poetic justice if some of the same people that Germany was helping to build a bomb to kill the Jews one day overran the Germans. Maybe not poetic jutice, but at least very ironic.