Will the Third Rome Fall to Islam?

From the desk of Fjordman on Thu, 2007-03-15 08:26

I recently read the book The Reformation by Owen Chadwick, about the Protestant Reformation and the situation in 15th and 16th century Europe. It is fascinating to read about Western Europe during a period when it was genuinely dynamic, not the anemic and self-loathing continent it is now. But still, I was also struck by how many similarities there are between the situation then and now. This was also during a period of Muslim aggression, as the Turks made inroads into the Balkans and Central Europe, eventually threatening even Western Europe.

Ironically, this period was also when the Greco-Roman heritage was rediscovered in the West. The classical heritage had been preserved in the East for a thousand years after the Western half of the Roman Empire collapsed, and with the pressures from Muslims, many Greek Byzantine scholars brought their texts with them to northern Italian cities such as Venice, thus fuelling the Renaissance.

However, the overall picture was one of Western division. Spain, which was probably the strongest nation in Europe during the 16th century, was after expelling Muslims from their own peninsula in 1492 more interested in looking westwards to the Americas rather than eastwards to the expanding Ottoman Empire.

The French even allied with the Muslims for their own short-term gains. According to Chadwick, "the French king had not hesitated to attempt alliance with the Turks when it suited his political need, and once allowed a Turkish admiral to celebrate the fast of Ramadan in the streets of Toulon." In general, "the European powers were more frightened of each other than of the Turk."

This was during the Second Jihad against the West. Now similar divisions are occurring during the Third Jihad. Not necessarily between countries, but between various cultural and ideological groups within the West.

It is especially interesting to see how the fall of Constantinople in 1453 affected the other Eastern churches, in particular in the rising Russian state which viewed itself as the successor of the Roman and Byzantine Empires. According to Chadwick, page 360-61:

The Russians always looked to Constantinople, received their faith from the south, felt themselves to participate in Christendom by means of their Slavonic Orthodoxy. By 1505 Russia had been created by Ivan III the Great out of the little principalities of the great plains. He married Sophia, the niece of the last Roman Emperor of Constantinople, and looked upon himself as the heir to the Christian heritage of East Rome. He took for the Russian arms the double-headed eagle of the Byzantines. These notions were powerful in the formation of Russian tradition and autocracy. We find a monk named Philotheos writing to the Tsar between 1505 and 1533: 'Two Romes have now fallen, and the third one, our Moscow, yet standeth; and a fourth one there shall never be […] In all the world thou alone art the Christian Tsar.'

This relationship can be detected clearly in art. Russian religious icons, as well as those in other Orthodox countries such as Bulgaria, have been strongly influenced by Byzantine art. Muslims in Russia are very much aware of this historic connection, which is why a group of top Muslim clerics in 2005 demanded that Orthodox Christian symbols should be removed from the Russian coat of arms.
 
People from Russia, a country which was once under the Tartar Yoke, should understand the Islamic threat. So why are the Russians helping The Islamic Republic of Iran with missile and nuclear technology that will eventually be used to intimidate non-Muslim countries?
 
In early 2007, during a meeting with the Russian foreign minister in Tehran, Iran's supreme leader Ali Khamenei was reported as calling for a cooperation between the two countries to halt US ambitions in the region. In 2005, President Vladimir Putin stated that Russia is the Islamic world's most reliable partner.
 
Are the Russians so naive that they believe this beast won't eventually come back to bite them, too? Iran has been secretly training Chechen Muslim rebels in sophisticated terror techniques to enable them to carry out more effective attacks against Russian forces, the Sunday Telegraph has revealed.
 
Russia's relationship with the West has always been complicated. As writer Alexander Boot, himself a Russian by birth, states, Russia is only partially Western and has never gone through some of the determening periods of the modern West, the Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment. The country's culture is a complex mix of Western, non-Western and a few anti-Western impulses. According to Boot, author Fyodor Dostoyevsky "sensed that Russia was irreconcilable with the Catholic West, which is why he believed that destroying the West was the holy mission of Russian Orthodoxy."
 
Some of the Russian skepticism towards the West is understandable. As long as Western nations pander to Muslims, why shouldn't the Russians do so, too? The reaction of European Union officials to the grotesque Islamic Beslan massacre of Russian school children, almost blaming it on the Russian security forces instead of the Islamic terrorists, rightly upset many Russians.
 
As Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald notes, the American bombing of the Orthodox Serbs to aid Muslim Albanians was seen as an attack on a historic ally of Russia. He thinks the West should be proving to the Russian public that we are on the side of the Serbs, not the Muslims. We should ask them to do the same with Iran: "Russians want a task equal to their putative power, and what they see as their rightful place in the world. Helping the Old World come to its senses about Islam is such a worthy task. They might just consider it."
 
Perhaps the Russians should study more closely what happened to the Byzantines. In his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), Robert Spencer discusses the sad case of the Byzantine Emperor John VI Cantacuzenes, who invited the Ottoman Turks into Europe to help him win a dynastic dispute. His invited guests overthrew his Empire about 100 years later, and have stayed in Europe to this day.
 
Islam was controlled in the Soviet Union but has had a renaissance since its downfall in 1991, helped by oil money from the Middle East. This re-Islamization of Central Asia should worry the Russians. They are spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a border security project, partly to avoid being demographically overwhelmed by Muslims. But Russia, too, has a large and growing Muslim population, and a non-Muslim population in marked decline. It is not impossible, if current trends continue, that Russia could either disintegrate completely or be majority Muslim within this century. Russia's non-Muslim population is declining, but numbers are rising in Muslim regions. Will the country called Russia still exist in the future? And if so, will it be the Russia of Pushkin or of Abdullah?
 
It is understandable that the Russians have Great Power ambitions of their own. However, one would hope that they will wake up, remember their history and realize that there are worse threats out there than American power.
 
Some of them do. Elena Chudinova, the author of the dystopian novel The Mosque of Notre Dame de Paris, says that if the Muslims were to succeed in establishing their own rule in Moscow, then Russian culture, Russians as a people and Russia itself would cease to exist. And because that danger is not unthinkable, she is calling for a struggle against the Islamic threat to the Christian world.
 
After Constantinople, the Second Rome and the last remaining vestige of the Roman Empire, in the 15th century was overrun by Muslims, Moscow became the Third Rome. Will the Third Rome fall to Muslims in the 21st century, just as the Second Rome did in the 15th? Or will the Russian people rise to the occasion and defeat the threat, as they have done in the past?

In Reply to Tito

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Tue, 2007-03-20 06:53.

Tito: "Again, more Christians died under liberal fundamentalism, ie, secular thought and ideas, in the 20th century than all previous centuries COMBINED."

 

Please qualify "liberal fundamentalism." Secondly, provide numbers to support your claims if you want to be taken seriously. I could spend some time to prove you wrong, however, if you are not willing to use facts to begin with, why should I waste my time?

 

Tito: "This is an absolute statement, which is incorrect. Since Christianity adheres to God rather to 'man'."

 

What is "absolute" about it? Please consult Locke before critiquing this claim.

 

Tito: "Since the French revolution of 1789"

 

The English Civil War had more impact than the French Revolution did; the latter is overrated, the former ushered in effective parliamentary democracy and the constitutional monarchy. Political philosophy emphasizing the individual occurred even earlier than the Civil War and involved members of the Scottish Enlightenment (e.g. Hume) as well. British liberal philosophy was the cornerstone of the American Constitution and was incorporated into the French Revolution; however, the latter was influenced mostly by Rousseau who certainly was not a liberal or libertarian. I am afraid that you do not know your facts.

 

Tito: "That is 'natural law', not human invention. Designer children are already in vogue. With people aborting children with downs syndrome and celebrities 'purchasing' children of different ethnicities, we are only a small step away from genetically engineering children."

 

So adoption is wrong? Adoption of ethnically diverse children is wrong? Pray tell what is "natural law"?

 

Tito: "You are speaking of 'relativism'. When you consider only yourself to satisfy yourself and the expense of your fellow-man, you are a hedonist in many respects, a liberal fundamentalist at worse."

 

I believe you mean "libertarian" not "liberal fundamentalist." Secondly you misconceive what "hedonism" is. Thirdly, self-interest does not mean self-interest at the expense of others per se. Lastly, I don't know what you mean by "relativism."

@Tito

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Mon, 2007-03-19 06:06.

Tito: "Europe produced two world wars, a genocide, two totalitarion systems, and millions dead. More Christians died under secular 'ideas' and 'systems of gov't's than the previous 19 centuries prior to the 20th century."

 

The 19th and 20th centuries in Europe were marked by massive population explosions as the traditional Malthusian checks of famine and disease were significantly lessened and war would bring with it revolution against the aristocracy. Fortunately, European colonies and former colonies were able to serve as depots for this excess population; nevertheless, if there was a larger absolute number of Europeans, there would be a larger absolute number of European fatalities in any war.  Your analysis fails to account for wars such as the Thirty Years War, in which fatalities, relative to the world wars were enormous (e.g. in Germany). Incidentally, the Thirty Years War was sparked by competing Christian sects.

 

Tito: "After W2, the Europeans then proceded to decapitate Christianity by promoting radical secular humanism, abortion on demand, and extreme leisure activity. What we have is a Europe that doesn't want to self-produce [sic] nor defend civilization. Europe is exhausted and killing themselves by playing themselves to death. With selfishness, Europe has denied the existance of God and superseded it with 'man'."

 

Humanism is ultimately derived from Christianity; so too is egalitarianism. Moreover, is it 'Christian' to "defend civilization"? Please qualify your other statements if they are to be taken seriously.

 

Tito: " 'Man' has now become the end all of civilization. Inspiring 'genetic' research in creating 'designer' children, euthanizing unwanted children, and maximizing personal satisfaction at the altar of 'hedonism' instead of serving a higher purpose such as God."

 

Firstly, since when has Man never been the raison d'etre of societies? Secondly, where are these "designer children" of whom you speak? If 'God' did not divide man into different races, subraces and colors, imbue Man with universal aesthetic values and unequally bequeath beauty, etc. to individuals, no one would want to "design" their children. Thirdly, are you taking in "unwanted children"? If not, then be silent on the matter; the rest is in "God's hands." Fourthly, your remark concerning hedonism simplifies the matter: personal satisfaction is subjective between individuals and groups.

 

Tito: "Europe may be saved by themselves if they wake up from the slumber that began on the eve of World War One in 1914, when 'The lights went out in Europe: we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime' (Sir Edward Grey)...Will they ever be turned on again?"

 

The Great War was merely the escalation of national competition within the framework of the Balance of Power that constituted international relations in Europe for centuries. The war did not alter the multipolar nature of the balance of power, although it did hasten the world towards a bipolar system, after which multipolarism re-emerged beginning in the 1960s with the Sino-Soviet divide.

Kapitein Andre's liberal fundamentalism

Submitted by Tito on Tue, 2007-03-20 03:58.

Kapitein Andre:
The 19th and 20th centuries in Europe were marked by massive population explosions as the traditional Malthusian checks of famine and disease were significantly lessened and war would bring with it revolution against the aristocracy. Fortunately, European colonies and former colonies were able to serve as depots for this excess population; nevertheless, if there was a larger absolute number of Europeans, there would be a larger absolute number of European fatalities in any war. Your analysis fails to account for wars such as the Thirty Years War, in which fatalities, relative to the world wars were enormous (e.g. in Germany). Incidentally, the Thirty Years War was sparked by competing Christian sects.

{Again, more Christians died under liberal fundamentalism, ie, secular thought and ideas, in the 20th century than all previous centuries COMBINED.}

Kapitein Andre::

humanism is ultimately derived from Christianity;

{This is an absolute statement, which is incorrect. Since Christianity adheres to God rather to 'man'.}

so too is egalitarianism.

{straw man}

Moreover, is it 'Christian' to "defend civilization"? Please qualify your other statements if they are to be taken seriously.

{To 'defend' civilization. Another straw man argument.}

Kapitein Andre:

Firstly, since when has Man never been the raison d'etre of societies?

{Since the French revolution of 1789}

Secondly, where are these "designer children" of whom you speak? If 'God' did not divide man into different races, subraces and colors, imbue Man with universal aesthetic values and unequally bequeath beauty, etc. to individuals, no one would want to "design" their children. Thirdly, are you taking in "unwanted children"?

{That is 'natural law', not human invention. Designer children are already in vogue. With people aborting children with downs syndrome and celebrities 'purchasing' children of different ethnicities, we are only a small step away from genetically engineering children.}

If not, then be silent on the matter;

{see above}

the rest is in "God's hands." Fourthly, your remark concerning hedonism simplifies the matter: personal satisfaction is subjective between individuals and groups.

{You are speaking of 'relativism'. When you consider only yourself to satisfy yourself and the expense of your fellow-man, you are a hedonist in many respects, a liberal fundamentalist at worse.}

@ perfektm

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sun, 2007-03-18 15:25.

What are you trying to say? Your long posts doesn’t make any sense you are way off from the topic.

@yatzhak

Submitted by perfektm on Sun, 2007-03-18 16:01.

I am trying to say... your analyzes does not pass good with reference to time frames...

the things you are pointing is before WW2.... and at that time even British and Nazis were having somewhere good relations...

sorry for my stinking English... but let my Server implementation complete... you will get to know what i am saying...

@King Cobra

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sun, 2007-03-18 15:03.

Give me a brake…. its ridiculous to even think that we left these countries “penniless” now lets see India what diamond mines we had emptied there? Yes we are the “ Have’s” we are blessed that our forefathers worked hard to earn this position.    

@ Yitzhak - Stop it, can you smell it ?

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2007-03-18 15:57.

No it is not, I think you need to brush up your history again and pay attention, and as far as working hard and being blessed is concerned, you are having a laugh ain't you, don't be so pompous and self righteous that smell of the Bull**** starts filtering even through the computing media, here is an extract from the history for your benefit and education.

The Koh-i-noor diamond that was once the largest known diamond in the world. The Kohinoor originated in India, belonged to various Indian and Persian rulers who fought bitterly over it at various points in history, and seized as a spoil of war, it became part of the Crown Jewels of England when British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli proclaimed Queen Victoria "Empress of India" in 1877. source - Wikipedia.

We had a habit of proclaiming a lot in those days as our own, didn't we?, today it would be called something else.

I sincerely suggest you read up, even watch a movie or two based on true historical accounts such as Richard Attenborough's 'Gandhi' and have some humility to accept what is a historical fact and don't compound your initial error into a silly argument or like some ignorant ones you too want to live in denial like some idiots who are in denial of the holocaust?

If you want a proper 'BREAK' then stop making a mess of historical facts just accept it.

@ Yitzhak - Info

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2007-03-18 12:09.

Here you go, I just turned to another topic and found the following example of hypocrisy and something to support my previous argument. Why is it that one always lives in this illusionist environment that whatever one does is OK but not what others do?(obvious exceptions apply as in my previous rant)

Stranger in my own coutnry
Submitted by flyfrog on Sun, 2007-03-18 11:04.

Last time I went back to my country (Belgium) I felt like a stranger in my own country, this was 2 years ago, I needed a translator to talk to the people walking around before 5 pm, cause all the Belgians they work until 5 pm while all those other immigrants doing nothing but drinking coffee and harrasse other people. Sitting in a tram and look at them they ask if you're a "racist" which they are so paranoia, they are the biggest racists. Man I am glad I don't live there anymore, this country is so f**d by the government by letting all those muslims do whatever they like to do. Poor Belgium!! I am glad and proud to be Flemish.
PATRICK'S BELGIAN RESTAURANT, 216/51-52, Moo 10, 20260 PATTAYA, THAILAND +66 38 720300 Mobile: +66 8 1 687 24 10 E-mail: [email protected] URL: http://www.patricksrestopattaya.com

@ perfektm

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sun, 2007-03-18 10:35.

It’s very nice to hear you wanted to defend Christianity and Pope but fact of the matter is the history of Christianity and Vatican’s role during WWII is something majority of Catholics don’t approve. Pope Pius arranged Visa’s to Brazil for 3000Jews on condition that they must convert first. They were baptized and then sent to Brazil but when Vatican learned that they returned back to Judaism the visas were revoked.

Cardinal Pacelli speaks out against Italian racial laws in 1938 but says not a word about Kristallnacht(the night of broken glass) which was in Nov 1938.

What say you about this… http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm

 

 

@ Yitzahk & Pope Pius

Submitted by Tito on Mon, 2007-03-19 04:07.

Yitzakh,

Your statements on Pope Pius are ignorant and false. YOu are posting 'hit' websites that smear the good name of a soon to be saint Pope. Pope Pius did more than any other entity in Europe to save the JEws, at the risk of losing his life, our priests, and the VAtican.

To continue to state that Pope Pius, and the Catholic Church, conspired with Hitler is along the same lines of denying the HOlocaust. Both are ludicrous and bordering on the fringe of reality.

The Rabbi of Rome was so impressed by Christian example and charity in helping the Jews in Rome that he waited after the war to convert to Catholicism.

Be careful with history because it will prove you wrong again and again.

@yitzhak... Date Missing...

Submitted by perfektm on Sun, 2007-03-18 13:16.

Again we are doing the same mistake... what you have done in reading about Subash chand Bose... or in case of accepting data from Al gore. check especially what happened when Al-gore presented Co2 as the reason of global warming.. though it was the product... unfortunately time stamp plays a big role and the way the sequence are taking place make a big difference in things.. still we dont want to consider the way sequence are occurring.

Subash came to Germany during WW2... though he came here because of his passion to fight British... but after he came to Germany... he was a critic speaking against Hitler.. this purely proves that he realized what mistake he had made, still the politicians will claim all of the life that he was a Nazi... not because he was or not, but because political propoganda means to fool the peoples for gaining vote-bank... and the situation is more horrible in 3rd world countries...

subash got chances in his earlier life ..i.e. before coming to Germany, to join Japanese... but he refused them because Hitlers personality was too Charismatic in that era of pre-WW2... but in just a period less then 2 yrs he arranged all things to relocate his base from Germany to Japan... though you can say it was either due to lack of interest Hitler had shown in India... or due to his personal guilt feeling that he was doing something wrong...

what ever, saying Hitler had no interest in India was as much falsified claim, as much saying that 2+2=10... though with time the priority of Arabs had raised due to Oil.. which was the real thing in war ... as well as to keep Hitlers greed of power high... But without the Aryan Invasion theory, Hitlers Nazism can't even survive. Aryan Invasion theory, which was placed by British to rule Indian subcontinent... to counter lies placed by Muslims in Indian subcontinent. anyways you will hardly find any sound documents to support that theory, like the sound base that never exist for those lies Muslims had spread and still exist in India...

anyways its time, we have to place things in proper sequence for sake to save our democracies, and find where are hidden enemies in our society. Its time we have to hold hands of each other to bring those libels and scandal from past in light, and have to resolve them. we also have to speak against any form of Negationism. there are just hanging chunks of data which we all are pointing... I still am not aware of Brazilian visa case, but the big picture had to be painted now to end these global conflicts...

anyways i will like to search in details about this too and soon my time-machine will be finished... perhaps i will put it online for us to extend and analyze all documents in a proper sequential manner instead of just reading history in distorted way... just a few months more to go.. as i m then nearly finished in implementation.

anyways it seems you are also too well informed about history... like i never knew that Subash Waffen SS was active in any fight.. and now this Barzil Visa case... anyways for your info let me tell you that for Nazis India and Tibet was of real interest... the Theological society and Himmler.. both have a special project running in Indian subcontinent to enhance the Nazism theory.... even Himmler had a plan to travel to India around 1938.. but the war had started.. and then risking to enter land in British India, especially in calcatta.. you can think of that...

due to this whole reasons... the things goes to difficult to analyze... definitely Europe was a hot bed of revolutionary Freaks before WW2, and they all were interlinked.. even you can put British in Nazi category if you don't put things in proper order of time.... anyways During a meeting with Lord Halifax in 1938, Hitler had pledged his support to the preservation of the British empire and offered his formula for dealing with the Indian National Congress: kill Gandhi, if that isn't enough then kill the other leaders too, if that isn't enough then two hundred more activists, and so on until the Indian people will give up the hope of independence. Gandhi may of course have been unaware of Hitler's advice, but it would also be charac­teristically Gandhian to remain friendly towards his own would-be killer.
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/fascism/gandhihitler.html

anyways it might be you are thinking that why i am then speaking against gandhi then pointing a article which is speaking that Gandhi was not supporting Hitler... because the time frame cronology speaks that Gandhi was growing into a pro-Muslim and anti-JudeoChristian figure on connecting all sequences of history... where Mr. Koernraad Elst (had again analyzed things in a small timeframe of history neglecting the long running phase of events..)

@yitzhak... Date Missing...#2

Submitted by perfektm on Sun, 2007-03-18 13:21.

In short the problem with Us is that we are analyzing history in small segments independent from each other... ignoring that fact that every event taking place in history was somewhere interconnected in both timeframe and locations.

One of the Best Example for my claim is Amin al Husseini, where Modern Historians force that Father of pali national movement Haj Mohammed Amin al husseini was oppressed due to British policies. and thats why he contributed with Nazis. But considering Amin contribution in Armenian Holocaust and the Hate speeches given by him against Non-Muslims(1917) speaks a totally different picture. remember Arab upraising against Türks was from 1917-1919.. then it had taken bloody shape.. but amin hatred against British was even seen in 1917.though from 1917 to 1918 he was active in Arab upraising. a movement supported by British and was even started by a British named Lawrence of Arabia...

so before making any decision... i will like to reindex whole thing in proper way in date and time frames....
By the way, i am not saying you to take me with words.. as still i m trying to understand the global picture... and day by day i am changing into a ISLAMOPHOBE... so i will also say somewhere i am baised..... but if the history is supporting my claims till now.. what else i can do..... Perhaps some light from your side might help... but for sure, without proper chronological order things can't be just accepted.... the date you mentioned was from 1938.. prerior to war... and we know how propoganda had been used to put hate in peoples from facist and Nazi goverments... every one was in that propoganda...

anyways in case of islamophobia... propoganda is other way round... where muslims are commiting crimes and media is saving them .... even by using tag like south asian... which has more to do with hindus instead of Muslims.

@King Cobra

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sun, 2007-03-18 10:34.

Just one simple point if we were so bad then why millions from our ex-colonies are coming to our countries?  

@ Yitzhak

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2007-03-18 12:01.

The answer to your point was already in my previous #2 reply, just as we went around the world to enrich our lives, so are they, at least they are contributing towards the development of our countries, which is more than what we did, here I am referring to our British example.

What gives us the right to go anywhere at will and then build barriers around us to exclude others, we don't like to extend the same courtesy to others if we can avoid it, what does that say about us?

We left most countries with almost next to nothing, let's take India, for 200 yrs we extracted all the resources for our benefit, never developed it from the Indian people's point of view, and if you follow my last point on #2 you should have concluded where we went wrong, and is it any wonder they come in their millions, we left them 'penniless' we are the 'Have's' and have held all the trump cards for a long time, so now tell me why are they coming over here?

On a similar note, why did millions of people from Europe go to America before,during and after the War? A lot of people on this Blog mostly European's slag the USA and it's foreign policies and yet the first opportunity they get they drop everything to go over there why?

Although, I am not in favour of mass immigration from anywhere into anywhere and firmly believe in sharing the technologies with the developing world for them to invest in their own countries and control their own boundaries to keep and contain their people, but knowing human nature, the grass always looks greener on the other side, can we control human nature? Why are humans going to other planets? Why indeed is America the richest nation on earth looking to colonise other planets?

People always want to go where they can make a better life for themselves and their children (not too sure about Muslims as no matter where they go they end up making a mess of a good situation)

Anyway, as far as I recall the issue related to the question of radical hindu's helping the Nazi's and not about immigration, but for the record my views on immigration are on record and if you want to read them go to 'Leaving London' and read @ Bananas 2 Submitted by King_Cobra on Thu, 2006-12-07 13:17..

Hope this satisfies you.

@ perfektm

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sat, 2007-03-17 20:30.

You are simply out of touch with reality and history. The role Pope Pius played during WWII is no secret anymore. Some catholic convents Individually hide Jews in convents during war. It’s a sad reality we been persecuted by Christian Europe through out the history. Saying Mufti of Jerusalem was spiritual figure to Hitler and he was misguiding him is not just lubricous but plain ignorance. Serbians can’t be described as Pro Jewish it’s simply not true. There is only one nation in this world which we can truly call our friend and that’s USA…….

@yitzhak... POPE PIUS AND NAZIS

Submitted by perfektm on Sat, 2007-03-17 21:41.

i m speaking to defend west, because i belong to the new generation of peoples,
which was born after WW2 and had learned the part of history which is cruel and
full of blood. we also learned the cost on which we got this freedom,
and definately we will not let it go away from us....

A big Pause occurred between what we see now, and what
we had seen in WW2. A Pause which started with a Nuke...
and i fear that it will Resume with a Nuke... if Iran
able to pursue Nuclear Weapon... or Pakistan falls apart from Musharrafs hand.

In case, insulting Gandhi is not something i love or enjoy, i am also a human like you...
and i also had some egoism... but if egoism is the cause to misery, and death of innocents...
then such a egoism is equivalent to a sin. if you extend this egoism further... you will end
at Nazis, and you will find the greed of power of Hitler.

This is our world, which we have to share.... there is only one earth on which we all have to live,
in fact the concept of democracy itself is to bring the fight of weapons to the fight of Mouth..
thats why we earn this freedom of speech.

the people who really had to fight with mouth... in most cases is Politicians...
and when politicians don't do this fight... then there is real blood bath... real misery, and real sufferings
... as people take weapons in hand....
i have no political dreams or so, but in fact speaking, condemning and standing at my point is my way
of defense to what is happening in our world.... At last i also know what my family had faced in past, and
I don't want that even my enemies family had to face that fate...
but i have so much of Christian friends, how can i can i accept of such a future for Europe.
which had given me so much love to me....

anyways As you said, Pope pius was supporting Nazis... then remember he was located in Italy...
and if he might had taken any step against Nazis or facist...
then you know what fate he might had deserved....

But sometimes Victims speak... and you can't ignore there voices... like i am speaking, so history don't repeat itself
though thinking about that part of history do make me sad...

Jews also had spoken openly that Pope Pius was helping them... there is a entire book about the secret mission
of Pope Pius to save Jews.... sometimes this is how people work...

It was not our religions, which were bad. In fact if you are one of those self hating Christians...
then look at churchills statement before war.. he said "do our childrens had to search new Gods"
what ever we have, we have Gold given to us from Jesus, Krishna, Rama, Buddha and so on.
at least it was not Jesus, Rama or krishna who advocated killing innocents, it was the Viewer the Nazis
who had formatted it.. though the the blame is thrown on Religion on day by day bases.....

@yitzhak... POPE PIUS AND NAZIS #2

Submitted by perfektm on Sat, 2007-03-17 22:37.

Perhaps the politicians at that time might have thought that it was for good to distinguish religion and politics
for the sake of everyones future.... Might be perhaps thats why they might have given power to Gandhi... but no one
will ever knew... what was in minds of people at that time...

But discarding religion also means you had discarded your basic identity... a single person is a single person...
but a bundle of person makes community... even animals understand that and travel in groups to cross rever...
so they don't become pray of Islamic crocodile... or should i say crocodile tears of Muslims....

though i am a Hindu, but i will defend Christianity here too... because Jesus never had teach anything bad...
and i will also defend pope... here is a link of that book.. if you want to read that whole...
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344

The problem is that religion has played a very big role in our development... and by discarding religion we had
just changed ourself into peoples without morals... we had thrown ourself inside so called "white guilt"..
we defend palestein, chechan, Bosnia without acknowledging that there only mission is to kill us...this is not
even passifism... what Gandhi had teached.... this is stupidity....
( thought Gandhi was also stupid, but his stupidity do had teached a lot of indians, what islam is all about )

anyways Palesteine was virtually free the day Israel withdraw from Gaza.... it has reached the lines
what Abu amar(Yassir arrafat) had asked for... or UN has laid .... Palestein also recive highest per
capita help in world... still the peoples are suffering and are in hunger... track yourself where all money goes?

and if you think, that Islam is a peaceful religion then check this....
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v235662e4SSDqkr?searchId=4372403961881749206&...

further if you think, i m somewhere wrong... then correct me...

Uh oh.. by the way... The pope apologized to Jews for crusaders age, because of the illfate they recived due to crussade..... but not next to Muslims..
because crusaders was the answer to Muslims aggression....

and the second point in other religions the fascist, Nazis had deformed and used religion for them... but it was the viewer,
the reader broadcasting that picture.... in case of Islam... its the Mohamed, and the Allah who ordered that...
and had promised to give salvation and prize in heaven... this time the threat is not only more dangerous then Nazis or fascist...
but also its growing by itself in 55 Islamic states and in our world too.... Perhaps this is the best way i can explain this to you...

Radical Hindus & Nazi's #2

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2007-03-17 15:11.

Bose, however, never had the full support of any mainstream Indian political leader or for that matter the masses. He did nothing more than say any other freedom fighter in the history of the world, let’s take Nelson Mandela and his eventual surrender to ‘armed struggle’, if one gets what one wants with relative ease and without struggle and if one has the ears of those in authority then there is no need for any bloodshed, we are frustrated with our own democratically ‘ELECTED’ governments in our own respective countries and are about to discard peaceful means and sanity to the garbage tips, then give some thought to the plight of those who, for 200 years were systematically oppressed and exploited, treated worse than animals in their own lands by ‘foreign invaders’ ( remember the 'Jallian Wala Bagh' Massacre ordered by Gen. Dyer)and we are fed up with ‘immigrants’ most of whom (except Islamists) have come here for peaceful, financial advancements and a better life. We blame the immigrants and immigration for all the ills in our western world today, we hardly distinguish between the trouble making Radical Islamic extremists and others, why is it that we don't stop saying 'immigrants' and actually say whoever we have issues with namely the 'Muslims' and stop pussy footing about, let's put the rest of those who are acceptable to us at ease and allow them to make a positive contribution to our country and way of life.

One other point, which again will be unpalatable to a lot, remember it were us from the west who went East and all around the world in order to enrich our respective nations and colonised the world, we didn’t stop at that, we exploited those lands and people and drained them of everything and anything so as to keep our fires burning.(To deny would be a lie)

I have always held this opinion particularly in relation to our British Empire, that, had we not exploited the colonies and their people but instead had cultivated them and treated them with respect, equality and honour then the sun would still be shining on the British Empire today, call me a dreamer but it is not hard, if you follow the logic, a recent example is South Africa, had the whites not created ‘apartheid’ and been fair then they would be still ruling the country.

Radical Hindus & Nazi’s #1

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2007-03-17 14:52.

@ Yitzhak

It seems you are tarnishing the Hindus with a very broad brush for the actions of a extremely tiny minority of rebels and in any case their cause was in no way on par with the ‘Nazi’s of Germany’, they were merely, as the name suggests ‘Freedom Fighters’ initially formed to fight against the British and the oppressive regime. When Bose saw that the efforts of the ‘ non violence’ movement of Gandhi was mostly falling on deaf ears in London, a unit of the British Indian Army was carved up to form the ‘Free India Legion’ with a handful of men.

Remember, Bose’s quarrel was with the British and not anyone else, I would hardly think as a ‘communist’ he had any sympathy with the ‘Nazi’ philosophy, to me he did what he had to do to get rid of us British from India and nothing else, as the phrase goes, ‘your enemy’s enemy is your friend’ and ‘all is fair in love and war’ hardly Indian quotes. You must give Bose some credit for his guile, as to how managed to get Indian POW’s out from under the Nazi’s noses and engaged them in his own struggle.

The Free India legion wasn’t entirely made up of Hindus, so you could hardly accuse them as ‘Radical Hindus’, it was a bunch of like minded freedom fighters who had, had enough with the status quo and the impotency of the Indian Political leaders to bring about independence, a view that was perhaps flawed but nevertheless was at the back of a lot of people’s mind.

For instance - Let’s take the current debate on the BJ of ‘Islamification of Western World’, what is the most common factor reflected and expressed by most of the participants in light of their express views and opinions generally ignored by the respective governments;

It is the frustration due to the ‘impotency’ of the situation and if you had noticed, even most of the highly intelligent and sensible people are advocating some sort of an armed revolt in some shape or form should the status quo not evolve soon and most, however, not all have expressed a ‘Revolt’ in some shape or form, I ‘m sure those of us who want to see the back of the ‘Muslims’ from our shores forever would have no qualms to back such a revolt, even those who are generally opposed to the far right movements wouldn’t mind rubbing shoulders with them to get a quick result if 'push came to shove' as the saying goes.

Would it be morally and ethically digestible to them and others, remains to be seen, how many would condone such an act also remains to be seen, so if people in the mainstream of Indian Politics like the Nehru’s and Gandhi’s who condemned such an act by those in the Free India Legion, would we brand them as ‘lefties’ or ‘sensible’ and peace loving?

How would one see the efforts of people fighting oppression and exploitation who are left with no option but to resort to armed struggle, as ‘heroes’ or ‘troublemakers’?

As I have mentioned before, during such times ‘Sanity’ is the first thing that deserts even the most sensible and peace loving people and ‘Insanity’ rules.

Hindu Collaboration with Nazi's

Submitted by Yitzhak on Sat, 2007-03-17 11:07.

First of all “Radical Hindus” fighting against Nazi’s during WWII is not completely accurate. In reality they collaborated with Hitler. One the famous Hindu leader Mr. Subhas Chandra Bose created Free India Government in Berlin and Hitler’s regime officially recognized “Free India Government”. It was to be called “The free India Legion”These legionnaires fought side by side along with Himmler’s Waffen SS in south west France and Netherlands.

Anyway our Judeo-Christian civilization is very strong and superior then any other civilization. Ever since we started confronting the enemy Islamo-fascists are on the run.

@Yitzhak... Lies of Hindu Nazis ..part 1

Submitted by perfektm on Sat, 2007-03-17 13:05.

Oh.. go look again in history...1st subash was not radical Hindu... he was a communist leader, and till now he is a figure which represent communist... because no one want to open this part of history, because opening history will make a outcry in political words..so what we know about him is here....

subash chand bose do had came to Germany with the help of Abwehr.... this was one of the few times Gandhi had cheered for violence.. which is usually ignored. we know he collaborated in Waffen-SS for 2 yrs... but to kill Jews? Remember...At a time, when no one in Germany dared criticize Hitler, Bose was openly critical of Hitler's treatment of Jews, the destruction of democratic institutions in Germany and the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. check library near you.. because i think you are in Poland. anyways this was new for me to know where Subash army fought with Himmler... can you tell me from where you located this whole info about subash chand bose? as i am still learning a lot every day about how this whole hidden part of indian politics... from where everything had started in 1857.

It is also said that catholic, as well as Pope Pius had helped Hitler....Ignoring the fact that even he had threat from Mussolini on his head..still he had saved Jews behind the scenes...

the figure which is blamed to be Radical in India is "Veer Savarkar". Here is his data.... check carefully that congress (Gandhi's political party) was waving that no one should help British against Nazis...
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/fascism/savarkarnazi.htm
the other person who make whole data fussy is "Jiddu krishna Murti"... and he had not contributed with Hitler... for which he recived peace prize...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

so saying Hindus were supporting Hitler was as much lie... as saying Christians were supporting Hitler.

We know well that Catholic convent were used to place Jewish children... and they tried a lot to save, yet left propaganda is used to blame catholics for that whole.... People in East too blame Christians for that insane work... saying Hitler was a Christian.... but we know which spiritual Figure was misguiding him..... it was Mufti of Jerusalem.

blaming Christians and Hindus for being Nazis is as insane as blaming the extinct or hardly to find race of Moderate Muslims... who also had contributed in fighting Hitler. it was our fault that we haven't checked well about Amin al husseini and his fatwa to kill moderate muslims.... today is any muslim speaks against Hamas, Hezbollah or Kashimir sepratist group... he is killed.... and killing is known as honor killing. then we have guys like sam iqbal for spreading taqiyya....

Our mistake was here....After WW2, Not only Amin al husseini was free... but all his tree was also free enjoying power in Middle east..

@Yitzhak... Lies of Hindu Nazis ..part 2

Submitted by perfektm on Sat, 2007-03-17 13:06.

one of the far branch of Amin al husseini anti Judeo-christian root was Gandhi, which is a highly well known international figure for peace, like islam says Jesus is our prophet too.... to touch Gandhi was nearly like touching a hot rod of iron.... because touching him against opens the chapter of Amin Al husseini.

anyways till where i know, Hitler was a charismatic figure before World War 2.... even he was nominated Novel Prize.... the charismatic figures of Hitler still exists in India. not because they Hindus were Nazis, But because the power was transfered to Neo-Nazis. Who will you blame for this. against all odds, if you say Hindus are Nazi supporters, then why Mein kampf is missing from India... where it is widely available in Islamic book stores in Arabia(As well as in West). Hindu looks Hitler as a good figure, because syllabus books in course and market dont tell the real picture of him.. you should also understand a basic thing.. that this is a War of Media... and till when you will not recognize your enemy.... you will not able to save yourself. the problem also exist in India.. as well as in west.... which see each other as enemy because of the lies served in the plates from peoples in between us, as such Middle east Muslims.....

Indian government blames "Veer savarker" to be facist/Nazi, he is blamed to be fascist because he recived a latter from "savitri devi". though he never replied even a single time to savitri devi.... but yes, a person who had received a latter from a Neo Nazi is a Nazi.... and a person who had wrote two latter(Gandhi) Quotting Hitler as My Friend is not a Nazi. the latter's though speak a bit of peace, but does they matches with deeds? Gandhi was active in Caliphet Movement, then in .... what it really had to do with Freedom of India ? Why Gandhi forced British not to prosecute Amin al Husseini after Hebron Masscare. why Gandhi haven't condemn Mopla riots of Muslims and at last Gandhis support to subash chand bose ... if you analyze all things, then you will reach a gandhi who was growing more and more anti-Christians and pro-islamic every day.

the person from which all Radical Hindu groups were derived was veer savarkar... Gandhi was believed to be shoot dead because on his orders.... not because he hate Gandhi, but because dhimitude was killing Hindus... Gandhi's congress who was given power after Indian Freedom want to divide into further in 2 parts... North India and south India... thus a lobby/gateway can be given to west and east Pakistan to join them. beside this he also ordered cash transfer to Pakistan due to devastated war between India and newly formed Pakistan... though money was transfered... but one more partition, will you accept such a decision for your country...

What you are facing Now... we are facing from decades.... the excuse is given to Kashmir Freedom struggle... media never had given any focus to killing of Hindus in Kashmir... and so it is also happening in Western Europe now.... you are just facing the same things what we faced...

By the way... we know carats and Bosnians were slaughtering Serbians(Pro Jewish peoples in WW2)... in Bosnian-Serbian conflict have you ever tried to dig the role of Pakistan in that ?

Have Fun... as i m open from mind to learn and i explore every day something new from history.... but don't just blame the propaganda leaked out .... also check them on the deeds and works of persons....

The Catholicization of Europe

Submitted by Tito on Thu, 2007-03-15 21:39.

Why is it that the Orthodox Christians cannot defeat the Muslim scourge?

The First Rome never fell!!  We are alive and well.  Because the Orthodox Christians are obtuse and refuse to recognize the Seat of Peter, God allowed the Muslim horde to overrun Byzantium.  The same will happent to Russia... unless of course they acknowledge the Seat of Peter.

St. Padre Pio was asked if Russia would ever convert.  His reply, "Russia first, then the United States to Catholicism.  The Russians will show Americans how to convert."

The irrationality and obtuseness of Orthodox Christians the world over will eventually be their downfall.  Our Lord and Savior made sure that the Catholic Church will not fail, but flourish.  After 2000 years the Catholic Church is 4X the size of the Orthodox, the largest faith in the world, and spreading still the teachings of Jesus.

Peace and love of Jesus is all that is required.  We'll convert either by dying at the sword of our enemies or through conversion.  It is only a matter of time.

Pope Benedict XVI will be the catalyst for the revival of Christianity in Europe.  First France then the rest of europe... then Russia.

Viva Cristo Rey!

Tito... the enemy is more

Submitted by perfektm on Thu, 2007-03-15 22:41.

Tito...
the enemy is more dangerous then what you think... fall of serbia, and division of Bosnia and serbia itself speaks a lot.... Amin al Husseini had direct root from ottoman empire... in fact after ottoman empire was thrown.... Amin arranges his living by contacting Indian Muslims...

The king of ottoman empire survived in France on Money sent by Nizam of Hyderabad...

By 1990's ties of Indian Muslims and loyals of Amin were close family ties... as Nizam of Hyderabad sons got married with dauther of Ottoman empire king...

this love affair will feed a community... which had divided Serbia...

if you think it was only Bosnian Muslims ... then check who was supplying all those complex weaponaries...

Perfektm... the enemy....

Submitted by Tito on Fri, 2007-03-16 21:19.

I think I know where you are coming from and I respect that thought process. Speaking, for myself, from a more transcendental point of view, the persecutiong of Europeans by their own muslim residents 'may' ignite a new Christian Renaissance. One more subtle than can be detected.

Yes, I know there are many secular conservatives who may balk at this alternative to dhimmittude, but what are the other options? Probably a violent reaction from the 'indigenous' European population, but that is a short term 'Russian' solution. And many west Europeans may not have the stamina, nor the stomach, to revolt. They are too happy in their little chateau's sipping their wine to want to be bothered. They'd rather walk in protest to any government incentives that may take-away their 'right' to leisure activity (sic).

A Christian renaissance may not be too bad. It would reinvigorate business by being more dynamic in thought. It may reinvigorate the arts by showing more creative and less-abominal 'modern' art.

Loving your fellow man. Helping the poor. Studying Latin, Greek, and philosophy again would benefit europeans more beyond theological thought and debate.

What has Europe produced the past 50 years after the end of WW2?

Nothing. No new technologies nor art of significance can be brought up. Some will point to Picasso, but wasn't he educated by Jesuits in the different styles of baroche and goth? Some will point to Einstein, but he is the product of pre-WW2.

Nothing.

The United States needs a reinvigorating and STRONG europe to defend western civilization.

The West will be dominant, whether with europe or not.

It's just a matter of time when Red China and India become Christian before they become superpowers.

Will the last great War involve Europe and the US against militant Islam? Or will it be either China or India fighting alongside the United States against militant Islam (which may include Russia)?

Tito

European achievements

Submitted by Bob Doney on Sat, 2007-03-17 14:21.

Tito, Einstein and Picasso did most of their original work well before WW2.

I suggest you have a look at the list of Nobel prize winners since 1945 and then see if you want to come back and tell us that Europeans haven't achieved anything. One hint: genetics.

Bob & European achievements and the lights of Europe...

Submitted by Tito on Mon, 2007-03-19 04:20.

Bob,

I do not disagree with 'some' achievements made by europeans, but nothing of the scale that was seen the 40 years prior to WW1 (yes world war one).

Europe produced two world wars, a genocide, two totalitarion systems, and millions dead. More Christians died under secular 'ideas' and 'systems of gov't's than the previous 19 centuries prior to the 20th century.

After WW2, the Europeans then proceded to decapitate Christianity by promoting radical secular humanism, abortion on demand, and extreme leisure activity. What we have is a Europe that doesn't want to self-produce nor defend civilization. Europe is exhausted and killing themselves by playing themselves to death. With selfishness, Europe has denied the existance of God and superseded it with 'man'.

'Man' has now become the end all of civilization. Inspiring 'genetic' research in creating 'designer' children, euthanizing unwanted children, and maximizing personal satisfaction at the altar of 'hedonism' instead of serving a higher purpose such as God.

Europe may be saved by themselves if they wake up from the slumber that began on the eve of World War One in 1914, when 'The lights went out in Europe: we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime' (Sir Edward Grey).

Will they ever be turned on again?

@Tito

Submitted by perfektm on Sat, 2007-03-17 09:38.

Have any American ever tried? I am a Indian... and i can change the rift .... but will Americans will love to collaborate with Hindus ?

we so called "Radical Hindus" were fighting in WW2 against Nazis, when Gandhi was in Jail for helping Abwehr, creating problems against British and for his links with amin al husseini .... still the partition of India was discussed with Gandhi... we had given the power in hand of those.. who were really fascist.

even Ahmedinijad speak of Love and Peace.. but in his country he speaks other language...

similarly various times in past Gandhis words & deeds were not same... he was nothing more then a men dreaming about a Islam with tummy-Dance..... but he forgot that tummy-dance is also fill with a horrible past... where life of a girl is ruined as a slave.... which is forced to dance..... Islam was no "Religion of Peace"....

Anyways we had no one to blame for past.... as we are new generation... and we have to design our future..... will we be able to remove those differences from past ... which Muslim world has generated between Indian & Christian lobby? Christians have come out of Indophobia.. that existed from 18th century till 1980's.... and so do many Indian now knows that Christians are not evil, like the libel use to exist .... now its a time to encircle the entity which really was evil... and which was spreading lies through taqiyya....

As we know, which global players were involved in that whole troubles..& we also know who was spreading lies...

again i will say, we cant change the past... but can change the future....

Muslim tiger

Submitted by truth serum on Thu, 2007-03-15 19:08.

I am reluctant to believe that Putin is naive...anything but.  More likely he believes he can hold the Muslim tiger by the tail.

 

But why would he want to assist Iran?  Because he, like many other countries, wants the big SATAN to fall.  Many Russians long the glory days gone by.  He wants for Russia and possibly himself the number 1 spot in the world.

 

 

 

Abdul Abulbul Amir

Submitted by dchamil on Thu, 2007-03-15 15:25.

Years ago, Percy French wrote a humorous ballad on a fight to the death between a Muslim and a Russian. At one point the Muslim exclaims, "Vile infidel, know/ You have trod on the toe/ Of Abdul Abulbul Amir!"