Scotland, Flanders, Catalonia: New EU Members?
From the desk of The Brussels Journal on Wed, 2007-01-10 16:45
A quote from EUobserver.com, 8 January 2007
Scotland would not automatically become a member of the European Union if it became independent, the European Commission has said. [...] “The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed. Things would have to be discussed and negotiated,” [the commission’s representative in Scotland, Neil] Mitchinson said amid a continuing public debate in Scotland on its independence from London. [...] Lorand Bartels, a law lecturer at Edinburgh University, warned that accession talks with Brussels would probably mean that Scotland would have to adopt the euro – a legal obligation for all new EU entrants. [...]
The far-right Flemish nationalist Vlaams Belang party on its website claims that if independent, Flanders would have more votes in the EU’s council of ministers than Denmark – seemingly also taking Flemish EU membership for granted. Meanwhile, a fictional documentary on French-language Belgian public television recently showed Catalan nationalists in the European Parliament congratulate newly-independent Flanders.
re: sprayoral
Submitted by George2 on Sat, 2007-01-13 11:37.
"If Flanders and Wallonia would totally separate, it's an old illusion to believe that Brussels would stay with Flanders."
I agree. Brussels will sink together with Wallonia to the bottom of the sea ... if that is the wish of its population.
Brussels together with Wallonia
Submitted by Johan Van Loon on Sun, 2007-01-14 02:49.
You might be right there, french speaking people of Brussels will never want to join Flanders.
However, how would these french speakers deal with the fact that Brussels would legally be the Flemish capital and that there are enough dutch speaking people living in Brussels to fill an entire flemish town : ethno-linguistic genocide ?
No legal experts in the Commission ?
Submitted by Johan Van Loon on Fri, 2007-01-12 12:42.
Unprecedented situations do not necessarily mean negotiations. First you would have to abide with legal requirements (yes, European law should even restrict the Commission itself !).
If any region were to split off Belgium to join another EU-member (Wallonia to France for example) that situation would also be unprecedented and yet no one would think of renegotiating France's membership (you would however want to settle things like electoral weight in the EU-parliament etc. but this could be done after the facts...)
If Belgium were to end its existance you could very well argue that Flanders (with well over 60 % of Belgium's population, well over 75 % of Belgium's trade and exports and with the Belgian former capital as its capital) could be the legal 'heir' to Belgium's EU-membership.
Even if Flanders & Wallonia would totally separate and the Commission would be very hesitant towards a Flemish EU-membership (although they would have more reasons to be hesitant towards a Wallonian membership) it would not be that simple. You could argue that there exists something like a EU-citizenship (remember that the so called EU-constitution wanted to enlarge this concept) and that nowadays there is a direct link between a EU citizen and the European institutions which can not end simply because of a change of government. This would mean that in the future you could for instance have a Scottisch independant government which is no part of the EU while all its citizens remain EU-citizens. What an interesting development this would be !!
Separation Flanders-Wallonia
Submitted by sprayoral on Sat, 2007-01-13 00:54.
As usually, the fact that Brussels is 90% French-speaking is overlooked in this mind game. If Flanders and Wallonia would totally separate, it's an old illusion to believe that Brussels would stay with Flanders. The one which would break Belgium would lose Brussels. Like it or not...
Scotland, Flanders, Catalonia: New EU Members?
Submitted by generalbullmoose on Thu, 2007-01-11 15:12.
So how realistic is it that all three become independent?
Scotland
Submitted by Bob Doney on Fri, 2007-01-12 02:10.
I'd bet against Scotland becoming independent - too many reasons to stay together when push comes to shove. There could be a major constitutional shuffle in the United Kingdom though in the next, say, 20 years. England might get its own parliament (which will look remarkably like the present British one!), with some sort of over-arching federal structure. Hopefully at the same time we'll retire gracelessly from the EU.
@ Amsterdamsky
Submitted by George2 on Thu, 2007-01-11 14:18.
"We will take Flanders if the EU can hire some Serbs or Israelis to ethnically cleanse all the Walloonians that might be living there first."
1. You tried to take Flanders before and you got the door against your nose. Why would it be any different now?
2. The Flemish will take Dutch Limburg.
3. Walloons or french speaking were not living there first; it is the other way around: the Flemish were first living in Brussels and surrounding areas.
4. As there are more and more Dutch leaving the Netherlands, why would the Flemish feel like joining this country?
5. If the Dutch want somebody else to do ethnic cleansing for them, then I would not advise them the Israelis because during WW2 no other occupied country betrayed and delivered proportionally so many Jews as the Dutch; seemingly the Dutch like Serbs to ethnically cleanse under their noses (see the Balkan War), so I would advise the second option; ofcourse there is the option I prefer: mind your own business and leave other people alone.
Wouldn't the people have to
Submitted by Brigands on Thu, 2007-01-11 12:56.
Wouldn't the people have to decide, through a referendum, wether or not they want to be part of the European Union? according to me it should be mandatory.
Strange Commentary...
Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Thu, 2007-01-11 09:37.
Paul Weston: even if divided along national lines, England will remain the powerhouse of the British Isles. In fact, the only reason that the United Kingdom is considered the British 'nation' when in fact it is a multinational state composed of the English, Welsh, Scotch, and Irish, is because England conquered and annexed these other nations. Without England there is no Britain, Great Britain, or British Empire.
Amsterdamsky: 58% of the Belgian population is Flemish, only 31% are Walloons; the remainder consist of other Europeans and North Africans and Turks. Not only are the Walloons a minority, but they wield disproportionate political power compared to the size of their electorate, and because Belgium is a multinational state, they are thereby infringing on the national self-determination of the Flemings. Furthermore, the Flemings are a West Germanic people akin to the Dutch, Frisians and English, whereas the Walloons tend towards Romantic culture, namely Gallo-Roman. So in light of this injustice, why are you opposed to Flemish independence and why is ethnic cleansing necessary? Lastly, why are the Serbs and Israelis the only groups that practice ethnic cleansing? Do you think the Palestinians would have treated the Jews any better had they won the war?
Paul Weston, since when did
Submitted by Dughall on Sun, 2007-01-14 17:51.
Paul Weston, since when did England conquer or annex Scotland? The kingdoms were united when the Scottish king (James VI of Scotland, James I of England) inhertied the English throne. The Scottish parliament was disbanded 300 years ago exactly when it decided to accept an English offer of union in exchange for political and trade concessions. The main motivation was from the English side was avoiding the danger of a second front in their war against France. On the Scottish side, trade access to England's empire was a big motivation. Both partners to the union kept their own judicial system and church. Considering the important role Scots had in creating, defending and administering the British empire, it's unlikely the empire would have enduring success without Scotland's contribution.
Flanders
Submitted by Amsterdamsky on Thu, 2007-01-11 09:12.
We will take Flanders if the EU can hire some Serbs or Israelis to ethnically cleanse all the Walloonians that might be living there first.
Dizma - Why Not?
Submitted by Paul Weston on Wed, 2007-01-10 19:12.
One very good reason. Britain is a nuclear power by dint of polaris submarines - which are based in Scotland.
A devolved Scotland would be a nuclear power, whilst England, whose Navy is due to be halved as a cost cutting exercise ( or to bring it into line with EU defence directives - does anybody know?) would be a defenceless country only good for patrolling the channel.
Paul
Submitted by Dizma on Wed, 2007-01-10 20:29.
Those submarines can be transferred to England.
Great
Submitted by Toon Autoch on Wed, 2007-01-10 18:56.
A simple way to step out the EU: just become a new country. What an opportunity for Flandres! Would be great. But... even the "Vlaams Belang" (separatist party in Flanders) is loyal to the EU. I'm not.
Scotland, Flanders, Catalonia: New EU Members?
Submitted by Dizma on Wed, 2007-01-10 18:47.
Why not?
On National Self-Determination
Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Wed, 2007-01-10 17:11.
The indepedence of Scotland, Flanders and Catalonia and their subsequent entry into the European Union could force the latter to be what it was intended to be, namely an economic and military bloc, rather than the supranational semi-government it is today.
Member states defined by their desire to retain their national sovereignty but co-operate on the military and economic planes might stand in opposition to the Union's domination by Germany (New Turkey), France (New North Africa), the UK (New Africa/South Asia) and Italy (who knows what Rome is thinking) whose leftist government have tried to expand the welfare state, multiculturalism, political correctness and national disintegration through immigration.
what a group of insane people
Submitted by last hidalgo hero on Wed, 2007-01-10 17:11.
Crazy stupids from the thick darknesses of the nineteenth century...