A Former Jihadist Dies: Anwar Shaikh, 1928-2006
From the desk of Koenraad Elst on Thu, 2006-11-30 08:41
On 25 November 2006 the British Muslim apostate Anwar Shaikh died in his home in Cardiff. I would like to pay him homage by reproducing my review of one of his last books, Islam and Terrorism.
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Anwar Shaikh was born in 1928 in Gujrat, now in Pakistan, in a Muslim family that vaguely remembered its pre-conversion Hindu origin as Kashmiri Pandits. In an age of mounting religious tensions, however, he grew up to be a committed Muslim. Come 1947 and the Partition of India, he was living in Lahore, a Hindu/Sikh-majority city expected to remain with India yet allotted to Pakistan because it was the metropolis of Muslim-majority West Panjab. Consequently, the city became the flashpoint of the worst interreligious violence, ending in its complete cleansing of non-Muslims. The young Anwar Shaikh took part in the Partition violence against Sikhs and Hindus, killing three Sikhs with his own hands. Terrorizing the non-Muslims seemed like the right and natural thing to do for a Pakistani.
In 1956 he quit his job as a schoolteacher, migrated to Britain and established himself as a successful businessman. In his new environment, he developed second thoughts about his native religion. He married a Welsh lady and made it a point to integrate fully in British society and culture. From 1973 onwards, he went public with his criticism of Islam. He started publishing a periodical for critical discussion of Islam, Liberty, in both English and Urdu, and a series of books on the relation between Islam and topics such as nationalism, violence and sexuality.
His demythologizing observations about the Prophet and the Quran caused considerable anguish among Britain-based Muslims, especially when the clerics they consulted failed to come up with a reassuring refutation. In the 1990s, he had the honour of being targeted by a number of Pakistani clerics with dire fatwas, finding him guilty of apostasy and of insulting the Prophet but mercifully confining the implied death sentence to the jurisdiction of properly constituted Islamic states. He ought to be safe as long as he doesn’t travel to an Islamic state. Nonetheless, his home is equipped with a number of security precautions.
In his book Islam and Terrorism (2004, Principality Publishers, Cardiff PO Box 918, Penarth Road, Cardiff, UK), Anwar Shaikh sets out to discover and reveal the scriptural and historical roots of Islam’s current involvement with terrorism. The question has been occupying the minds of some Indian scholars for decades, but after recent Islamic terror attacks on Western interests, it seems that it is at last being taken seriously by Western audiences, politicians and scholars. Many of them are no longer prepared to swallow the easy answer that terrorism is un-Islamic and that it is only advertised as an Islamic Holy War by misguided individuals unrepresentative of true Islam.
All those people who say that acts of terror such as those on 11 September 2001 are un-Islamic, should tell us on what grounds an Islamic court could sentence an Osama bin Laden. The basis of Islamic law is the Quran along with the Prophet’s sayings and conduct (which has the value of precedent). So, can an Islamic terrorist cite the authority of the Quran and the Prophet in his justification, or can these sources be invoked to the opposite effect?
The answer, Mr. Shaikh argues, is quite straightforward. He says that Mohammed himself was a terrorist, the most authoritative precedent for contemporary Islamic terrorists. To prove his point, he presents long lists of quotations from the Quran, the better-known Hadith (tradition of the Prophet) and also some lesser-known Hadith collections. In this respect, his book is a treasure-trove of first-hand data on the foundations of Islam and its doctrine of Holy War (Jihad).
Numerous canonical statements affirm that the Mujahid or Holy Warrior undoubtedly counts as the best among Muslims, e.g.: “Acting as Allah’s soldier for one night in a battlefield is superior to saying prayers at home for 2,000 years.” (from Ibn-e-Majah, vol.2, p.162) Or: “Leaving for Jihad in the way of Allah in the morning or evening will merit a reward better than the world and all that is in it.” (from Muslim, 4639) Jihad, while not a duty for every individual Muslim, is a duty on the Muslim community as a whole until the whole world has become part of the Islamic empire.
The cult of martyrdom is an intrinsic part of the doctrine of jihad: the martyr “will desire to return to this world and be killed ten times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him.” (Muslim 4635) And from Allah’s own mouth: “Count not those who were slain in God’s way as dead, but rather living with their Lord, by Him provided, rejoicing in the bounty that God has given them.” (Quran 3:163) Contrary to a recent tongue-in-cheek theory which reduces the heavenly reward for the fallen Mujahid from 72 maidens to mere grapes on the basis of some Arabic-Aramaic homonymy, a number of Prophetic sayings, in varied wordings mostly not susceptible to this cute Aramaic interpretation, confirm as Islamic belief that “the martyr is dressed in radiant robes of faith, he is married to houris (the paradisiac virgins)” etc. (Ibn-e-Majah, vol.2, p.174) This confirms that the suicide terrorists were not acting against Islamic tenets, as some soft-brained would-be experts in the media have claimed. On the contrary, to sacrifice one’s life in a jihadic operation against the unbelievers is the most glorious thing a Muslim can do.
In Jihad, it is perfectly permitted to deceive the unbelievers and subject them to terror. Anwar Sheikh provides all the scriptural references plus many precedents from history, which we cannot reproduce here. Suffice it to say there is ample evidence that Islam permits, and that by his personal example or by that of the men under his command, Mohammed has given permission for abduction, extortion, rape of hostages, mass-murder of prisoners, assassinations of enemies and dissidents, breaking of the conventions of civilized warfare, breaking of treaties, and suicide missions. From Osama bin Laden to the murderers of children in Beslan, North Ossetia, the Islamic terrorists are faithful followers of the Prophet.
For all his grim discoveries about the religion of the Muslims, Shaikh is not anti-Muslim: “I was not only born and bred as a Muslim but also fought grimly for the glory of Islam. Even today, my loved ones are Muslim. There is no way I can be anti-Muslim.” (p.306) Being a European outsider to Islam, I always get nasty replies when I say that “the problem is not Muslims, the problem is Islam”; but here you have it from the horse’s mouth. It is perfectly possible to retain warm feelings for Muslims yet leave Islam and even criticize Islam.
He continues with some practical advice to Muslims. Setting an example in his own life, he is showing them the way to integration in non-Muslim societies: “I am a citizen of Great Britain, therefore I have a legal and moral obligation to live like other Britons and raise my children as British citizens, who are free to practise any religion they like.” (p.306) This is admittedly a difficult thing to do for the believing Muslim, for the practical core of Islam is not some theological doctrine but the observance of Islamic law, preferably under an Islamic polity but otherwise even in a non-Islamic society. The idea of allowing their children the freedom to choose their own religion, i.e. to choose against Islam and for an allegedly false religion, is abhorrent to most believers. Yet, it is what they have to do if they want to integrate into Western (c.q. Hindu) society.
Unfortunately, Shaikh finds that the number of Muslims ignoring this common-sense rule has crossed a critical threshold to a point where it negatively affects not only Muslim-non-Muslim coexistence, but even the non-Muslim host society itself: “The Muslims in this country have not fully appreciated the hospitality that they have received. (…) It is no crime to be a Muslim in this country but it is a crime to be a terrorist because terrorism has demolished many of those civil liberties for which the West has worked for a long time and given tremendous sacrifices to gain them. Now, they have created such conditions that safety is becoming impossible without identity cards, emergency laws which authorise imprisonment without a trial”, etc. (p.307)
Remember the good old days when the bobbies, Britain’s police constables, did their rounds without carrying guns? It cannot honestly be denied that the behaviour of an ever-increasing number of young Pakistanis has contributed decisively to the sad discarding of this glorious tradition. Every non-brainwashed European can confirm that an influx of entire Muslim communities (as opposed to individuals or single families, who tend to blend in like most isolated immigrants do) has created a new set of problems for his society. The larger these Islamic islands in Western society become, the less willingness they show to adapt, and the more they insist on maintaining or restoring Islamic mores and laws within their communities and ultimately in society as a whole.
The one silver lining to the dark cloud of Islamic terrorism is that it alerts non-Muslim societies to the specificity of the problems which Islam poses. Westerners often feel guilty of xenophobia, “fear of what is strange or foreign”, when they criticize Islam. But the problem of Islam is not one of strangeness or foreign origin, as will readily become clear when you compare it with Buddhism. In Western culture, Buddhism is even stranger than Islam, which shares certain common roots with Christianity, yet people find Tibetans in their native dress colourful rather than threatening. There are no Buddhist gangs attacking peaceful citizens, nor are there Buddhist associations making separatist political demands such as the right to observe a separate law system. Buddhism may be strange, but informed people will agree that it is an enrichment to our society. Islam is less strange, yet its enriching contributions are unclear while its nuisance value is all too palpable. The stark reality of Islamic terrorism blows away the fog of doubt and timidity hitherto surrounding the painful question of how to evaluate Islam.
Ass for Nansi's folks
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Fri, 2006-12-01 23:12.
Nansi, I know that you will find extreme comfort and pleasure in knowing the holiness, sanctity and religious morality practiced by some in your region. View only if you are not easily shocked and over the age of 18- maybe even over the age of 78.
http://www.lindasog.com/archives/2006/11/love_is_in_the_air.html
This is shot with a night vision camera in Iraq and titled: Love is in the Air
Yes indeed these are
Submitted by Nansi on Sun, 2006-12-03 11:22.
Yes indeed these are exceptional cases in our society thanks be to Allah. Saudis drinking, Iranian using drugs or people practicing some sort of marriage which is clearly forbidden by Islamic constitute very small percentage in the entire Muslim world, where its a cultural thing to drink and get wasted in England, France and oh Germany and other great Western nations.
What about the rates of minor girls having children in your community not knowing who the father is. You want to argue those figures too. You only like to use the odds in the Islamic world and compare it to your immoral society.
Nansi's moral tourism
Submitted by Jari on Sun, 2006-12-03 14:46.
And this, Nansi, is precisely one of the reasons why the Western world should be defending it's OWN higher - culture, that we have largely forgotten about since the 60's and 70's.
Tell us something about yourself
Submitted by Mission Impossible on Sun, 2006-12-03 12:41.
@Nansi ... I know, I know, we are all so immoral it must drive you nuts. And you are so perfect; everything you do is just right.
What do you do when you want to enjoy yourself?
What should we do?
Which country, in your opinion, provides the best place to live, and why?
@Nansi
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Sun, 2006-12-03 12:33.
The cultural thing you speak about is largely based on the individual freedoms available to the West, and the choices that individuals make are theirs to make. They may choose their religion, too, or lack of it. Your society does not have that option and chooses to impose limits on the individual by force and compel religious adherance.
You sound as if you sometimes think freely between your expressions of anger. I think you might welcome being able to practice some of that freedom in more constructive ways. God is a God for people and not for a states repression of its people.
Superb article
Submitted by EUnationalist.org on Fri, 2006-12-01 19:11.
What a brilliant article. Yet more damning evidence that Muslims and Islam are not compatible with Europe. Trevor Phillips is also publicly admitting now that multi-culturalism isn't working, when are the dumb politicians going to listen, and stop immigration from cultures that are completely at odds with ours.
http://eunationalist.org
Where's the battle
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:57.
I would like to point out that Protestants normally are not well-versed in Catholic doctrine and sometimes we may step on some toes without being aware of it. I have been known to do that on occasion to either branch. I don't like to see good people become upset with each other over matters of little significance to others, especially where it was unintentional. If I make such a mistake, please let me know without attack as my reaction is to counterattack. I prefer to save my counterattacks for the real battlefield.
@Flanders Fields
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:08.
"I don't like to see good people become upset with each other over matters of little significance to others, especially where it was unintentional."
Flanders,
It's not of "little significance." This is a matter of principle. Any matter of principle should never be "insignificant" to any thinking person with a sense of morality. You know that.
As you correctly pointed out, many Protestants are not well-versed on Catholic dogma. And when I see obdurate ignorance and slander or libel against the Church I MUST address it. How else can ignorance be combatted? By shrugging and letting it slide? In the 1930's, too many people shrugged when Nazi Germany arose and took the Sudetenland and began persecuting the Jews.
Have we not learned from that?
@atheling and @ Flanders Fields
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:49.
By the way atheling, there are things that various Protestant "sects" do which are also unscriptural or arise out of tradition. I don't just pick on the Catholic church for it is not the only Christian "sect", with "flaws" in its teachings and/or are has practices that are unscriptural.
Perhaps that will make you feel better.
You sound as if you worship the "Church" more than you do the Risen Savior Jesus Christ. I say "sound" mind you; I could be quite wrong on that point.
Protestants and Catholics need to quit worshiping their denominations, sects, and/or even the Body of Christ. Such false worship is narcistic. Only God alone is worthy of worship.
We should be worshiping the Lamb of God instead, i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who came in the form of flesh as both a man and the Son of God, i.e. Jesus Christ.
PS - Dear Flander Fields: Thank you for trying to be a peacemaker on this thread. Blessed are the peacemakers. This will be my last post on this thread responding to atheling.
@FLLaw3870
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:52.
You have not answered my questions. Could it be because you don't want to? I used the term "obdurate ignorance", and I see from your retreat you wish to persist in it. You want to continue in your ignorance and you don't want to face the truth, don't you?
That's cowardly, man. So craven.
What is your lineage
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:51.
Atheling and Downey, I really am surprised at your comments. The we of which you make light of is the cultural and religious heirs of the same descendants as you(unless there was a sultan in your lineage). You are trivializing matters on which there is substantial agreement. You are entitled to your beliefs but you are making fun at the expense of those whose intent was clear, and reasonably stated.
Lineage
Submitted by Bob Doney on Fri, 2006-12-01 02:12.
You are trivializing matters on which there is substantial agreement.
Sorry! I just think it's funny people trying to "claim credit" for stuff that happened a thousand years ago. Still, no offence intended (well, only a teeny bit).
It's "Doney", not "Downey" by the way. We Doneys have had a thousand years of people calling us "Downey", and we're pretty fed up with it...
Bob Doney
@Flanders Fields
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:15.
I am not deliberately trivializing matters. However, I am pointing out hypocrisy. That's all.
Hypocrisy???? Tell me more...
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:34.
@atheling:
hy·poc·ri·sy
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
In your response to Flanders Fields, you made the following unsubstantiated claim:
"I am not deliberately trivializing matters. However, I am pointing out hypocrisy. That's all."
Please if you are going to make such a serious claim, you should be able to substantiate such claim from the evidence you have gathered from this thread.
So please feel free, better yet I request that you substantiate your "claim of hypocrisy" or at least have the "Christlike" attitude and/or intellectual honesty to retract your statement.
I sense animosity between you and I and if I have done anything to personally offend you, then for that I apologize for your taking offense and as the Pope would say I regret your reaction.
@FLLaw3870
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:47.
You have not personally offended me. How can you?
However, I am offended by your bigotry against the Church, of which I am a member, and for your blatant ignorance of it, of which you claim to "know enough" when, in truth sir, you do not.
You didn't even know that the "infallibility" claim by the Church does not apply to the person of the Pope. It applies only to the Church's teachings on FAITH AND MORALS. This is a major erroneous preconception among Protestants which has persisted for centuries. You'd think that in the information age we live in now it would finally be laid to rest. It has not. And the only explanation for that persistence is bigotry.
Yes, you offend me intellectually and spiritually, but not personally, therefore I need no apology from you. Your offense is to the Catholic Church and the Pope. The only "apology" that would nullify the offense is to perhaps make an attempt to learn or know more about that "Whore" and the "antiChrist" without the lens of bigotry and prejudice.
Well save the apology for the future just in case!
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:27.
@atheling:
You stated: "Your offense is to the Catholic Church and the Pope. The only "apology" that would nullify the offense is to perhaps make an attempt to learn or know more about that "Whore" and the "antiChrist" without the lens of bigotry and prejudice."
What if as history unfolds [and by that I mean the future], I find out that the Catholic church is the "whore of Babylon" and that a "Pope", who arises, is the anti-christ, or more likely the false prophet, would I still have to apologize? LOL
Well the Pope and the Catholic church is not due an apology from me, and if it were, it would not be by my use of the unscriputural and ridiculous man's tradition of praying "hail Mary's" seeking a false intermediary to apologize and/or ask for forgiveness, i.e. Mary. Mary can't save one soul nor grant forgiveness even on behalf of the Catholic church. She, being a sinner like us all, had to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ like the rest of us. So why should I go to this woman, blessed though she may be, when I can go to the Son of God Jesus Christ Himself, the ONLY TRUE Savior and Intermediary?
Regarding the term "infallibility", you stated: "It applies only to the Church's teachings on FAITH AND MORALS".
A quick Google search found this interesting site by a former nun who addressed the "flaw", my moniker (almost), on the errors of the doctrine of infallibility and contradictions in Catholic church teaching where both can't be infallible. It is an interesting read found at:
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Infallibility.html
An excerpt:
"According to Roman Catholic doctrine, popes and Catholic church councils are infallible. This means that whenever they make official declarations concerning matters of faith or morals, God supernaturally protects them from making errors. Infallibility applies to all Roman Catholic popes and church councils: past, present, and future. [Note 1]
"Webster's Dictionary" defines "infallible" as "not capable of erring". It says that "infallible" as used by the Roman Catholic Church means "incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals".
What happens if a pope or a Catholic church council makes an "infallible" declaration which directly contradicts the "infallible" declaration of another pope or church council?"
Worth a read and sounds as if her spiritual eyes were opened...
@FLLaw3870 again...
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:46.
"What happens if a pope or a Catholic church council makes an "infallible" declaration which directly contradicts the "infallible" declaration of another pope or church council?"
I don't know. It's NEVER HAPPENED. Yes. In 2000 years, it's NEVER HAPPENED.
And that's because the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS guided the Church in faith and morals and she has NEVER erred in that respect.
False Teachers
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:35.
Why do you take the word of a "former nun"? Has it occurred to you why she is no longer a nun?
If you want to know about the Church GO TO THE SOURCE, not some flim flam man who says what you want to hear.
More Ignorance
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:33.
"my use of the unscriputural and ridiculous man's tradition of praying "hail Mary's" seeking a false intermediary to apologize and/or ask for forgiveness, i.e. Mary. Mary can't save one soul nor grant forgiveness even on behalf of the Catholic church. She, being a sinner like us all, had to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ like the rest of us. So why should I go to this woman, blessed though she may be, when I can go to the Son of God Jesus Christ Himself, the ONLY TRUE Savior and Intermediary?"
Well, you've just proved my point. You think praying the "Hail Mary" which IS Scriptural (Luke 1:42), is wrong. Tell me something. Answer these three questions before we go any further:
1. Do you pray for other people when they ask you to?
2. Do you think that people who are faithful to God live eternally?
3. Where is the Biblical basis for Sola Scriptura?
Oh I see you have responded...forget it...
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:37.
Oh I see you have responded...forget it...
Moniker...."fllaw33870" and "flaw"
Cute...
Good old days
Submitted by Bob Doney on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:13.
Remember the good old days when the bobbies, Britain’s police constables, did their rounds without carrying guns? It cannot honestly be denied that the behaviour of an ever-increasing number of young Pakistanis has contributed decisively to the sad discarding of this glorious tradition.
The "good old days" are still with us. Britain's police are not permitted to carry firearms on routine patrols. The rules are here:
http://tinyurl.com/yxtzdb
(I hope the other "facts" in the article are more reliable!).
Bob Doney
@ Ransom again - Christain evil
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Thu, 2006-11-30 20:22.
Ransom, I hope you have some time to review this article before your class:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GregKoukl/2006/11/21/christianitys_real_record
I think the crusades and evil Christianity is given a lot of negative weight with little fact. Be careful of the leftist ploy of making right too relative when the facts do not justify it.
Crusades response
Submitted by Ransom on Thu, 2006-11-30 22:13.
By no means do I think that everything that occurred during the period of the Crusades was negative. In the brief time that I had, I was simply referring to such events as the Siege of Jerusalem and the massacres that followed.
The Crusades were certainly not unprovoked. Witness Tours (732), the Moorish invasion of Spain, and Manzikert (1071). 100 years after Muhammed's death, his followers were threatening Western Europe. In fact, a number of scholars are rethinking how the crusades are taught. It's historically inaccurate to say that they were spurred on by some sort of inherent Christian aggression. Sadly, so much of that is still taught in academia.
General Sherman's destruction of Atlanta in the American Civil War was brutal, but it doesn't negate the necessity of that war (or even of his march to the sea). My point was simply to say that a mature faith can realize past problems. So I agree with you, although perhaps I didn't word it as clearly as I should have.
Nansi's Head Lost In The Sand
Submitted by FreedomSeeker33 on Thu, 2006-11-30 18:03.
Nansi,
You said:
"No mention ...how the Non Muslims enjoyed all social benefits of the state and were able to participate in politics and other state affairs."
You must be talking through your ass. I have been living in an Islamic country until recently and I couldnt stand the oppression the Islamists have imposed on the Non-muslims. They practised the worst kind of religious and racial discrimination and apartheid under the guise of 'affirmative action'. The Non-muslims contributed most towards the taxes yet are denied most of the social benefits pertaining to education scholarships, business grants, loans or health care. What kind of 'social benefits' are you talking about? You mean having the Non-muslims treated as dhimmitudes is a social benefit?
Please dont think you Islamists can always get away with your lies and falsehood and re-writing of history whenever it suits you.
Slavery in North Africa
Submitted by Bruno on Thu, 2006-11-30 15:50.
Just a couple of links (in french) about NOWADAY's stories of slavery by muslims :
http://www.bladi.net/8890-esclavage-moderne.html
http://www.denistouret.fr/eurodroits/esclavage.html#23%20avril%202003
http://www.bayti.net/bonnes.php
You guess what can be the magnitude of the slavery problem in countries like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan....;-)
Nansi is the one with his head in the sand.....
Submitted by oiznop on Thu, 2006-11-30 14:24.
Let's start with this:
"Maybe anyone with common sense should think about why only Muslims have the least percentage of drinkers and only Muslims have the least percentage of those who do not have premarital sex"
The reason you have such a low percentage of these things is because your neanderthal sharia law forbids such actions, and if one breaks that law, they are STONED TO DEATH without the benefit of a fair trial.....The religion of peace, ladies and gents.....hahahahahahahaha.....
Second:
"No mention of how Islam protected the Non Muslims at its great peak, how the non Muslims enjoyed all social benefits of the state and were able to participate in politics and other state affairs."
Where??? Show us???..Give us an Islamic state that does this???....Bangladesh???...Indonesia???...Saudi Arabia???...Turkey????......If you consider persecution a social benefit, then Jackson, you have issues.....
Third:
"You never mention what the Bible permitted the children of Israel to do when they entered the holy land, killing and massacring of anyone opposed them"
...The bible says point blank, thou shall NOT kill....What bible are you reading???....Oh wait, that's right, you are reading the Koran....if the "children of Israel" killed, it was more than likely in self defense from the persecuting Islam.....
Your attempts at altering history have failed, my friend....you need to take a look at your faith and start to question a lot of it's teachings.....
Nansi is blind to Qur'anic & Hadith evidence
Submitted by Mission Impossible on Thu, 2006-11-30 13:51.
Poor little Nansi. She doesn't know because she doesn't want to know. Her world of delusion would come tumbling down if she ever accepted even half of the truth.
My dear Nansi, you have no doubt heard of Bukhari, no?
Here is a hadith that might suggest 80% of all Muslims are ignorant of their own faith.
Sahih Bukhari; Volume 3, Book 41, Number 598:
A man manumitted a slave and he had no other property than that, so the Prophet cancelled the manumission (and sold the slave for him). No'aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him. [Narrated Jabir]
Aaahhh! Ignorance is bliss, no?
Treatment of women… yes
Submitted by Nansi on Thu, 2006-11-30 14:22.
Treatment of women… yes indeed I forgot to say women in the West are nothing more than a commodity, an object. Women in your part of the world have the least rights. I guess giving women the rights as man have contributed hugely to the number of failure marriages and destructions of families. I do not expect you to know that much because of your alcohol consumption. At least for you it is the norm and for us it is an exception thanks to Allah.
Islam gave women more rights than any religion, women at the time of Prophet Muhammad owned real estate, property and were influencing in the total society welfare. Again I do not expect you to understand…
Still I do not know any source from the Quran that permits rape. It is quite the contrary, because it is the Jewish faith that does not consider breaking the commandments of God against those non Jews. And just to set the facts straight families that murder their daughters for honor are brought to justice. The Quran and the Sharia law permit the state to execute rapists and murders. The Quran in the Nour chapter outlines this very clearly.
Lastly I will add that the Quran is a true scientific miracle unlike the books that were tampered with.
Nansi is the one with his head in the sand.....Part 2...
Submitted by oiznop on Thu, 2006-11-30 14:31.
"Islam gave women more rights than any religion, women at the time of Prophet Muhammad owned real estate, property and were influencing in the total society welfare. Again I do not expect you to understand…"
More rights???...What, the right to wear a burka????...The right to receive a mercilus beating????...The right to be treated as a possession?????.....The right to have their body mutilated in the name of Allah???....Property???..Real Estate???...What kind of line are you feeding us here???.....
I forgot you people want a
Submitted by Nansi on Thu, 2006-11-30 15:40.
I forgot you people want a woman to show her body so that she is free and liberal and have rights. If not then she is oppressed and backwards. Islam teach modesty and get this, when Christianity and Judaism WERE clean before tampered with they taught exactly this modesty mostly for the protection of women, you never see Marry without a scarf in the church, although it does not signify much, only some remains of the faith, a faith that was meant to be only for the children of Israel as it is quoted by Jesses him self in the Bible when asked by non Jew to teach him the faith, he told him I was sent to Israel... You people should examine your faith and you ideology.
Let see where in the Bible the killing and slaughtering is mentioned, allover the place, specially the Old Testament. Do not be upset I will give you the example of Jerocho. I do not want to say more but you should know your Bible especially when it talks about adultery and that little story about Prophet Lott sleeping with his daughters. I do not know where to start.
I advise you to keep on listening to your man in the church and your twisted media. You fear Islam because it is spreading in your own backyard. Not only through immigration but because of conversion. For now keep up the good work and the head sticking in the sand.
nostro to nansi
Submitted by nostro on Thu, 2006-11-30 22:29.
"You fear Islam because it is spreading in your own backyard." ?? what makes you think that we fear islam ??
Crusades never ended...just PAUSED.
Submitted by FLLegal on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:14.
Thank God we had the Crusades, but sadly we did not finish the job and eradicate the Islamic cancer in the world.
Perhaps "had" is not the right word for I don't think they ever ended, they were just put on "pause".
My only opposition and/or other disappointment about the Crusades would be the killing of any Jews.
Now we in the West will either have to conclude the Crusades to Victory...or surrender to Dhimmitude.
We are in a war of cultures. Western civilization against Islamic barbarian totaltarian fascism. This is not a war against terror. Terror is a tactic. Islam, a warlike ideology from its inception, declared war upon us and we have no choice but engage it and defeat them or they us.
But to the JEWS who deserve an apology, this is one Christian who would never apologize to the Muslims for the Crusades like some "Christian" fools in the West have done.
I'm just saddened they were not finished off then. Now we will have to do it now if we wish to keep our way of life in the West.
Funny...
Submitted by atheling on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:19.
...how the credit for Crusades, which was fought by CATHOLICS, is taken by the Protestants.
Yup, the Whore of Babylon herself, rallied the CATHOLICS of Europe to fight the Muslim hordes.
Better Get Your Facts & Timeline Straight before you get "cute"
Submitted by FLLegal on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:45.
The Reformation did not occur until the early 1500's A.D. Before them, the "protestant movement" did not exisit and "protestants" where in the "whore of Babylon" as you phrase it.
The Crusades, which were several, started around 1095 A.D. and deemed by many to have ended around the mid 1400's A.D.
During the time period of the Crusades, those protestants were Catholics sitting in the Catholic church listening to the dogma of tradition and looking for away out of ritualism seeking to get back to the true Word of God, i.e. the scriptures, and a personal relationship with the only true Savior Jesus Christ, instead of a false intermediary like the Blessed Mary, and a return to Justification by faith.
So get your facts and timeline straight woman, uh I mean "athling", before getting cute... :)
You once said, "My pastor once said that "you can't argue with invincible ignorance." I'm taking him for his word."
I too will take him for his word. :)
Wrong
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:04.
"The Crusades, which were several, started around 1095 A.D. and deemed by many to have ended around the mid 1400's A.D."
Nope. 732 AD. Charles Martel at Poitiers. Any child with a rudimentary knowledge of history knows that.
Talk about wrong "timelines."
You got me there ... Feel better?
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:21.
Yep I was referring to the Medieval Crusades, when I should have been referring all the way back to the Battle of Tours.
Now with that stated correction, ALL STILL occured before the Reformatiion which you conveniently chose to ignore or address, concerning my post response addressing your "cute", yet flawed analysis.
Yup.
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 00:25.
My point is, you referred to the Church as the "whore of Babylon" and the Pope as the "antiChrist", yet, if they are, how can good things have come out of them? The will to fight the Crusades, which we can agree is a GOOD thing, came from CATHOLIC Europe, and was galvanized by CATHOLIC POPES.
You like to take credit, presumably as a person of European descent, for something good that Europe did. I have no problem with that. However, your hypocrisy remains when you also take that credit as a CHRISTIAN, when it was NOT your CHRISTIAN SECT which fought it. What makes your hypocrisy even more egregious is your slander and bigotry against the very institution and people who fought those wars, which benefitted all of us.
That's my beef. Deal with it.
Addendum: Now where is the "flaw" in my analysis? If there's a "flaw" in anything, consider your moniker.
Lie or lack of comprehension
Submitted by FLLegal on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:00.
@atheling:
You stated: "My point is, you referred to the Church as the "whore of Babylon" and the Pope as the "antiChrist", yet, if they are, how can good things have come out of them?"
That is not true. That is a lie or lack of comprehension on your part. In fact, YOU were the one to use that term in this thread. I merely responded using, as you put it, your terminology. BUT NO WHERE will you find on this website that I made such a statement as you claim.
I did say the following in the thread located at http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1694#comment :
"So No I don't "hate" the Catholic church, but I am wary of it. I don't believe its claim of a direct line from the Apostle Peter and there are some that say that it will be from ROME, i.e. the Catholic church, from whom the false prophet shall arise. I won't go that far yet. I will just have to watch, wait, and see how history unfolds."
But to say that I referred to the Catholic church as the "whore of Babylon" and the Pope as the "antiChrist" from what I said above is either a lie or lack of comprehension.
When talking of where or from whom the false prophet would arise, I said I would NOT go that far YET.....
Speaking of lack of comprehension you also stated: "However, your hypocrisy remains when you also take that credit as a CHRISTIAN, when it was NOT your CHRISTIAN SECT which fought it."
Uh...must I repeat a sentence from a prior post?
"The "protestant movement" did not exisit and "protestants" where in the "whore of Babylon" as you phrase it."
The "CHRISTIAN SECT", as you phrase it, i.e., Protestants, were STILL part of the Catholic church.
Still Hypocrisy
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:14.
You cannot claim ANY credit for the Crusades while you condemn the people and the Church who fought it.
That's pure hypocrisy. Your argument does not stand. It's specious.
@FLLaw3870 again...
Submitted by atheling on Fri, 2006-12-01 01:10.
Oh please. Now you're hedging.
It's quite clear from your statement,"So No I don't "hate" the Catholic church, but I am wary of it. I don't believe its claim of a direct line from the Apostle Peter and there are some that say that it will be from ROME, i.e. the Catholic church, from whom the false prophet shall arise. I won't go that far yet. I will just have to watch, wait, and see how history unfolds." what you are implying.
History has unfolded, sir, and you have not paid attention. Or, perhaps, your eyes are deliberately closed.
Yep, really funny
Submitted by Bob Doney on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:26.
Even funnier when Americans claim the credit, eh!
Historical note to confused readers: The Crusades took place before Protestantism was "invented", and before America was "discovered".
Bob Doney
Credit for Crusades???
Submitted by FLLegal on Thu, 2006-11-30 23:52.
Dear Bob:
You stated: "Even funnier when Americans claim the credit, eh!"
As you correctly note, it was before America was "discovered".
At that time MOST of our ancestors were in Europe, prior to the Reformation in Europe, sitting in Catholic churches and/or in the battlefield, during the Crusades.
Just because your ancestors chose to stay behind and not come to America once it was discovered, does not grant you the exclusive right to, as you put it, take "credit" for it when it was YOUR ancestors, along with OURS, who fought in the crusades.
Claiming the credit
Submitted by Bob Doney on Fri, 2006-12-01 02:01.
I'm not claiming the credit! Or any blame. Let's face it, if we all knew who our real ancestors were it might be quite a surprise. There was a TV programme on here recently which did genetic tests on various very "British and proud of it" folk - indeed some were, not to put too fine a point on it, racists. One indignant true-blue Brit was told that her profile closely matched the patterns to be found in Romany gypsies. She was NOT happy.
Just because your ancestors chose to stay behind and not come to America
I think you're getting confused here. A lot of the descendants of my ancestors upped sticks and emigrated to America. Probably.
Bob Doney
It is You and Your Ilk Who Are Twisted, Nansi
Submitted by Mission Impossible on Thu, 2006-11-30 18:39.
We already know about our twisted Media, thank you. We are dealing with that problem using our own methods. It is only a matter of time before they are neutralised and thousands of journalists made unemployed, and the BBC destroyed.
No, we don't fear Islam. Don't kid yourself little Nansi. You are suffering from delusions enough.
What anyone in their right mind should fear is the destruction of civilizations that Islam has always brought in its wake. You are a parasitic culture, and you have nothing to offer the world except your own pagan dogmas, and petty enmities. Your book is a forgery, as well as a mind-numbing read. You have to be stupid or a hashish eater to find any sense in it.
The only lasting solution is for you Muslims to be sent back to the Middle East, Pakistan, and Bangladesh where you can be left alone to fulfil all the potential you keep claiming you have. A great culture? Well then, go away and try and prove it to us (and yourselves).
But, we already know you will fail. It is entwined in the way you Muslims view the world. You are a failed people, so therefore you must keep looking for someone or something to blame for your failures.
Imagine what is going to happen to Islam when we in the West rid ourselves of our childish Marxist "leaders" and careerist politicians that currently pollute our democracies!! A weakening of American influence will probably invite a strengthening of European resolve. Your pseudo-religious nonsense will then no longer be tolerated. Oh dear. Multiculturalism (an American idea and export) is already dying: a fact which is undoubtedly frightening you and many other Muslims. So again, it is only a matter of time. Islam in the West will fall like a house of cards: here this year, gone the next.
The only people who will cling to it for dear life will be those 3rd rate people who populate the Middle East and South Asia, because they are in truth just simple, superstitious people, who fear jins, the devil, and the wrath of Allah. Allah? There is no "allah," just the imaginings of your perfect (mad)man, Mohammed.
Head firmly implanted in sand
Submitted by Ransom on Thu, 2006-11-30 16:37.
So, let's see, here in America women are members of Congress, the Senate, women own corporations, practice law and medicine... They're allowed to vote, speak in public and to non-relatives, they aren't forced to cover their hair, faces, or entire bodies with massive sheets, they can drive cars, they don't have to walk behind their husbands down the street...
Are there modesty problems in the West? Certainly. Freedom can often bring undesirable things. But what sounds better, freedom or oppression? Also, consider the horrible scourge of female sexual slavery. How many girls (including some westerners) have been kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery throughout the Persian Gulf and beyond? Do all Muslims practice this or condone it? No. But don't think that the entire faith is lily white and pure.
As a practicing Christian, I can openly admit to the horrors that have been committed throughout history in the name of Christ. In fact, tonight I'm teaching a course on the Crusades. Crusaders were often merciless to both Muslims and Jews. Yet I don't believe that owning up to past atrocities destroys the foundation of my faith. Why can't you do the same?
@Ransom
Submitted by atheling on Thu, 2006-11-30 18:34.
The worst disservice you can do to your students is to teach that the Crusades were wrong. They were not. If it were not for the Crusades we would never have had the greatness of Western Civilization. The West would have been aborted had Islam taken over Europe.
There are politically correct teachers EVERYWHERE who approach the Crusades with the wrong attitude. Be apart from them.
Remember, Ransom....
Submitted by oiznop on Thu, 2006-11-30 17:45.
"Crusaders were often merciless to both Muslims and Jews"....The Crusades probably would not have taken place had the Muslims not taken Jerusalem.....
And one more on the Crusades...
Submitted by Ransom on Thu, 2006-11-30 22:17.
"The Crusades probably would not have taken place had the Muslims not taken Jerusalem....."
Totally correct. There was a threat that was met.
Allah's nannies
Submitted by Flanders Fields on Thu, 2006-11-30 13:26.
You seem to neglect mentioning that the Barbary coast was engaged in worse slave trade than most western nations and pursued that course so long as they had the power to do so. The inception and entire history is full of the "godly" practices of that religion that go against the freedom and well-being of the individual. The entire "religion" is slavery. You cannot renounce it if you chose to, which I have no doubt that you would, having a mindset which condones the subjugation of the individual to your religion, which is the states imposition of slavery to a creed of fanatics.
I think you unwittingly answered your own question as to " why only Muslims have the least percentage of drinkers and only Muslims have the least percentage of those who do not have premarital sex." Maybe the force, duh."
Perhaps it is the force exercised by your religious masters, who allow no deviation from a creed interpreted and imposed by them. Perhaps there is less premarital sex because veils are removed from the goats at night. I don't really care what you believe, just don't try to foist your propoganda that you are superior and that all your problems are caused by others. If you want to know your true problem, take an objective look at your own institutions and deprivations of your people. If your Allah is so great, why does he need so many nannies to impose his will?
Religion of Peace
Submitted by Bruno on Thu, 2006-11-30 13:15.
I love reading the rosy prose of muslim apologetics like Nansi.
Speaking of slavery, it is ironic that the only sphere where it kept thriving (until NOW) is the muslim world, from the saudi homes and work places (including saudi expats living in the West !!) to various african countries of Africa (including Morocco where they are called "les petites aides")
About rape, the Koran itself and the enormous number of rapes and gang-rapes by muslims today speak by themselves. If it were'nt enough in the atrocity category, several muslim countries jail the victims of rapes....and muslim fathers and brothers very often kill their own daughter/sister after they've ben raped. Nice religion ideed....
It is very sad that muslims do not drink_when I consider what is going on in their countries and the awfull way they treat women, maybe they should try a few glasses of wine or Bourbon, it could'nt make them more violent or stupid. For those aware of the real alcohol consumption levels by saudis (in and outside Saudi Arabia) and of the nightmarish spread of heroin in Iran(to take just a couple of examples of the huge addictive trends in the muslim world), Nansi babbling is just boringly empty.
Head Still In The Sand
Submitted by Nansi on Thu, 2006-11-30 11:39.
People you quote in your article are only sad examples of your anti views of a great religion that Allah has blessed the world with. It is interesting how you do not mention any of the basic facts that Islam and Prophet Muhammad peace be on him such as forbidding of slavery which the West could not stop until the beginning of the 19th century.
I do not know where your man get that Prophet Muhammad permitted rape or murder or abduction. I do not know where the Quran or the Hadeath teach this, unless you use some sick minds which are always quoted on this website, people who love to twist the words of Allah and his Prophet. No mention of how Islam protected the Non Muslims at its great peak, how the non Muslims enjoyed all social benefits of the state and were able to participate in politics and other state affairs.
You never mention what the Bible permitted the children of Israel to do when they entered the holy land, killing and massacring of anyone opposed them.
Maybe anyone with common sense should think about why only Muslims have the least percentage of drinkers and only Muslims have the least percentage of those who do not have premarital sex. Maybe because of the influence of their religion that forces them to do this. I ask you Mr. head in the sand a faith that teach those values would really permit rape and killing. I wonder who has been doing most of the rape and killing in our time, first we had the Serbs in former Yugoslavia and now the great American liberators in Iraq. Good luck on your next article.