Yes, I'm sure you're right. However, I was factoring in the Ottoman occupation of and quartering of soldiers in the Balkans, which must have had some genetic impact, most likely in those areas which are currently Muslim i.e. including both converts and descendants of Ottoman soldiers, officials, and settlers. Obviously, the Ottoman armies contained significant contingents of Anatolian and Balkan Greeks (Janissaries) and Bulgars, which were already present in Southeastern Europe, but Turks, Kurds, Levantines, Persians, Caucasian peoples, and Arabo-Berbers were also found within their ranks. Naturally, the genetic differences between the Bulgarians and Serbians were sown before Islam ever exploded from the Arabian peninsula. In conclusion, the Ottoman conquest of Southeastern Europe had a negligible genetic impact; the numbers of non-Europeans and the amount of admixture being relatively small.

Firstly, I obviously do not "own" this blog, for if I did, you would be banned.

Secondly, I did not refer to the Hungarians as "socialist," if you had read my post you would have read me arguing that the 1956 revolutionaries were more likely nationalists, social democrats, and liberal democrats, as opposed to classical liberals or neo-conservatives.

Thirdly, many of the Muslims in the Balkans are of the same ethnicity as their Christian neighbours e.g. the Bosniaks are Yugoslavians as much as the Serbs or Croats. However, the Muslims immigrating into Western Europe are Arab, Iranian, Levantine, African, Berber, South Asian (Pakistani, Bangladeshi) and various combinations thereof. Thus, these newcomers share neither blood, culture, land, language, nor religion.

Lastly, again, the barbaric goings-on in South Asia do not really concern me next to what is going on in Europe, I'm afraid. The Hindus can be just as primitive and barbaric as their Muslim and Sikh enemies. Most importantly, this blog is about Europe, especially w.r.t. social (Islamization) and economic (conservatism) policies.

Dear Mr. Handlery,
Thank you very much for your frank report on October 23 events in Budapest!
I was there, too. Leaving the peaceful Fidesz rally of 100,000 people I got the police attack of tear-gas grenades and mounted police using swords on Károly körút. As it happened, I fled to the same place you did, next to the synagogue. I left the place through the Wesselényi utca. Your report is real! It was unbelievable it could happen!
If your opinion were the official opinion of Brussels and the EU-parliament, most of the Hungarian people - including me - would not be EU-skeptic…
Thanks again for telling the truth!

A Hungarian physician

If you dont believe, here is the news item proving casteism among pakki muslims:
"....In June this year, in remote Meerwala village, 610 kms from the capital Islamabad, young Mukhtiar Mai wept and pleaded for mercy when she heard the verdict (verdict that she should be raped!). But the 18-year-old was dragged into a mud hut and gang raped, while a crowd of a few hundred stood outside.

The ordeal of the impoverished lower caste Gujjar family started ..the boy's father, was told to bring one of his five daughters - failing which all the women in his family would be raped. With no option left, Farid brought Mukhtiar, his eldest daughter, to bear the brunt of the verdict..."

As I pick up my laptop and turn it on its like walking into my virtual garden and looking over my virtual fence i see you guys, and do you know how that makes me feel ? why we are virtual neighbors, no , more than that, we are family, every time I log on there you are skye, Atheling and Taurus689, guys, there is the world……and then there is us…….i just wana know how come you write all this stuff before I get a chance too…. Have you got a virtual glass against the virtual wall ??

The gang-raped lady, Ms Mai, who was visiting USA to prevent future rapes among women was/is indeed from a low caste status of Pakistan, mind you! So, you have casteism even among 'pakkis'!!  

As Miriam Madam said, the Indian Government has had a low caste or Dalit as a President while no Western Government has had any Black President - or even a Woman for a long time! That ought to speak for the advanced level of the Indians!!..!

They have had many islamist Presidents including the current one who 'usurped'  not just from low Castes but also from a competing/contending Christian by name Mr P.C. Alexander.

Andre, For heaven's sake, dont eat your words whether they come from your mouth or not! You are the one who called the Hungarians 'socialists'! [Unlike you, I am being civil living in the Western civilization!}

We all know you dont own this blog! Americans [like me] must be welcome here too! This is for all those who have suffered from racist, homophobic and xenophobic islamofascism [East Asians being the worst hit by zillions of 9/11s, 7/7s, 3/11s]. This blog is about learning ase mature, educated, sophisticated, clear- and level-headed Westerners or Easterners [infidels all the same] from our common mistakes.

I didnt make any **assertion** about Hungary when I used the q-tag "right?" though I found later it is Bulgaria that has 10% muslims.

Second, casteism is an ancient cultural structure that can't be eliminated overnight or outlawed by brutal diktat, though their Nehruvian Government had legislated to eliminate much of existing differences.

Third, casteism is a little like the hierarchy of the Catholic church and much like the monarchy by birth-right either in the WEST or EAST, though monarchy has been routinely undermined in the East as in Nepal/Afghanistan/Iran by commies, fanatics and bigots..etc.

Fourth, casteism has persisted [for the last 900 years] even among **converted** muslims and Christians as we find "Dalit" muslims/Christians who are the most persecuted outcasts or lowest among muslims/Christians too. The colonial rulers did nothing in 900 years to eliminate casteism! [The current political party of Christians in nexus with hateful islamofascist villains and commies, has failed miserably too [ruling for the past 50 odd years] as it is now planning a **caste** based quota system for jobs and college seats!.. !]

And those police methods. Yes, there were some examples excessive force, they were well documented by the media, and they will probably serve as a basis for corrective training. But the devil is in the details. And one crucial detail is that once a violent mob is warned to disperse (this one was, several times), anyone who stays - including members of parliament - will be dispersed by force, regardless of race, religion, age, family status, profession or good intentions. A police charge (mounted or dismounted) cannot pause to examine everyone's motivations for not dispersing - you stay, you risk getting your head cracked.

The non-lethal ammunition (shotgun shells with rubber projectiles, probably Tri-Dent) was designed for direct fire. The projectiles have a trajectory like a rainbow (the tear-gas grenades even more so). At 30 meters their vertical spread is considerable. Insofar as a shotgun can be aimed at all (not much), you don't aim at the legs, but at center of mass (which means about the sorar plexus). The police fired thousands of rounds, and caused something like 3 to 5 head injuries - to me that says they were reasonably careful about their aim.

And I am really curious about the tear-gassed restaurant, does it have a name?

The police are not entirely stupid. They had been monitoring some telephones, and just published some recorded conversations between the mob's organizers (not just the texts, but played the recordings). These make it fairly clear, that the organizers' intention was to pull the riot-police with them, until they could mix with the rally crowd.

Peter Kiss

Perhaps it helps if you understand the local politics and speak the language. I do both. Apparently Handlery does, too, but he seems to have left out some significant pieces of information.

Orbán, the leader of the Young Democtats has been an ambitious failure several times over. He cannot get over his election defeat two years ago, when he was the incumbent prime minister, yet managed to lose to a particularly weak socialist candidate. Instead of responsible opposition politics, he has been an obstructionist demagogue since then. He found some useful - and deniable - allies on the far right (which cannot get over the fact that post-communist Hungary does not buy into their anti-capitalist, anti-business and antisemitic vision) and among the soccer hooligans (just as nihilistic and violent as those in England). On Oct 23 Orbán deployed these with reasonable skill, hoping to provoke a major incident. He succeded in provoking only a minor one: the police had had some warning, they were careful about applying force - but when they did apply it, they meant it.

Handley claims to have been there, yet he seems not to have noticed a violent mob of some two thousand. First these tried to disrupt the celbrations at the Parliament building (the "official" celebrations). They attacked the police with paving stones, clubs, bottles, knives and a tank (a 1956-era T-34 museum-piece, part of a static display). When the police pushed them back, they made a fighting witdrawal in the direction of the Young Democrats' rally (about 1,500-2,000 meters away), continuosly fighting with the riot police. The police repeatedly warned the organizers of the rally that a violent mob was moving in their direction, and requested the organizers to warn the participants not to take a particular route (one of four) in the mob's direction, once the rally was over. The warnings were ignored, part of the dispersing rally crowd and the mob got mixed.

Peter Kiss

Firstly, Hungary is not "commie" nor is its population 10% Muslim; Muslims are not statistically significant in Hungary. It sounds like you pulled your information out of your ass after you had fed it LSD.

Secondly, we were talking about Hungary. Moreover we're discussing Europe, despite the strange presence of Americans on this blog. This thread is not an excuse to discuss India! If you want to start a pro-Indian anti-Muslim blog do it elsewhere. As far as I am concerned, Hinduism with its caste system and clans is contrary to Western civilization, and Sikhism is even more so.

There are about 10% hateful islamofascist villains in commie Hungary, right? Like all such barbaric villains, they too tested their power using veil and head-scarfs - perhaps counting on commies. Luckily, they failed as in UK's school teacher's case.

Unluckily for India and Nepal, savage islamofascist villains in evil nexus with the commies, are flexing their muscle more and more, grabbing ever more. One islamist Upper House MP of their parliament said banning veil is unislamic and ordinary muslims cant decide on this but only the [taleban type] imams and mulahs of India!

Too bad, the unwise Indians dont know the power of boycott that they should have leveraged a long, long ago..Only then, we can get traction on this issue of spread of islamofascism in Europe.

The German leftwing magazin "Telepolis" confirms this description of the events.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/23/23865/1.html

If the purpose of the state is to maintain law and order at whatever cost, including risking the lives and security of those for whom the state is supposedly protecting, then one wonders where is the dividing line between a democracy and a dictatorship.

That the Hungarian authorities engineered the violence against peaceful protesters is quite apparent.

My second "prong" as it were is to challenge Mr. Handlery's opinions of Hungarians' view of their socialist government, the latter's response to its manifested unpopularity, and the relation of these to 1956.

While the majority of Hungarians certainly regard their government as corrupt and are concerned with the economic peril in which their country finds itself, they do not consider the socialists in the same light as the Soviets. The latter were Russian and used 88 mm tank cannon not tear gas. Secondly, it is clear the socialists must go and that their economic policies must be changed, it is not evident as yet that the citizens of Hungary need to take up arms as they did in 1956.

Even Western governments use disproportionate force against their citizenry when they take to the streets esp. against the anti-globalization movement.

And yes, the socialists do contain ex or neo-communists and to some extent support certain Communist policies and practices; however, it must also be noted that a certain number of anti-Soviet (1955-56) revolutionaries in Poland, Hungary, the Baltics, Finland, and East Berlin were either actively or passively supportive or sympathetic to the National Socialists. Such partisans numbered in the tens of thousands in the Baltics and Finland (e.g. Forest Brotherhood) and were active until the 1970s. I am certain that the current socialists contain genuine social democrats as surely as I am certain that the anti-Soviet partisans included nationalists who were not Fascist or National Socialist.

Corruption is corruption.

Mr. Handlery seeks in his conclusion to draw a parallel between the current demonstrations and their causes and their historical counterparts a half century ago.
However, these eras differ significantly:
The 1956 Uprising was due to a number of grievances: (a) foreign domination by Moscow, (b) the severity of Soviet oppression (as Hungary had been an Axis member), (c) the economic hardships imposed by Stalinism, and (d) Hungary's being sealed off from the West (like Poland and unlike say Romania, it leaned westward). In general the protest was a nationalistic one, evidenced by the fact that Nagy was "made" Prime Minister. In addition, Hungarians still look fondly on the days of "Goulash Communism" during the 1960s and 1970s (?). Lastly, the Soviets invaded not because of the political threat, but to prevent Hungary from leaving its military alliance - the WP. Had the Hungarian revolutionaries (or counter) succeeded against Moscow in 1956, it is not unthinkable that a moderately Communist or at least a very social democratic country would have emerged as a neutral ground between East and West. So while 1956 was not a "Socialist" revolt, it certainly wasn't a capitalist, conservative, or even arguably a liberal one. Indeed, it was a nationalistic one, and as Hitler's Germany, Churchill's Great Britain, and Stalin's Russia demonstrate, it can take on a variety of forms on the right-left spectrum.