I know this is an old story now, but..

I observed this morning that the ticket inspectors, out of fear, travel in gangs of 6, presumably to ensure their own safety and because of fear of violence.  And this was on a tram with 3 or 4 passengers.  What struck me is that if they split up, there would be 3 more trams with 2 extra staff to ensure safety, or 6 more trams with 1 extra staff member.  They do have radios to call for assistance if required.   

antibureaucratic

I am not trying to insult you so much as enlighten you. 

You are focusing your attentions on what you believe to be the hypocritical Christian religious right...I am merely trying to get you to refocus your attention to the Islamic religious right.  The Christian right is dead for the most part in Europe, but there is still a religious right to contend with...it's just not the one you are used to thinking about.

Here is a quote that maybe you can relate to:

  "I wasn't fond of the hypocritical conservative-Christian line about hating the sin and loving the sinner, but it was preferable to the forthright fundamentalist Muslim view that homosexuals merited death.....Crititicizing any stand of Islam in any way felt too much like voicing racial or ethnic prejudice.  Indeed, the Dutch (like Western eruopeans generally) viewed Islam less as a religion than as an expression of ethnic identity.  While enthusiastically condemning Protestant fundamentalism-which hardly existed anymore in the once serverly Calvinist country-the Dutch couldn't bring themselves to breathe a negative word about Islamic fundamentalism."  While Europe Slept

Take from what you will, if anything at all.

You are mistaken to believe that I am defending the Christian religious right because I am a Christian.  I am not.

@ Al Shaheed etc...

I asked you politely ("please...") to make an effort at clarification.  That was obviously  a waste of effort on my part.  You appear unable to focus on 'content' and on specific points presented.   Perhaps a reasoned discussion is not your 'cup of tea'.   But, I grant you, that you are very promiscuous with gratuitous insults, and you ARE able to focus on spelling errors (always a good indication of a small mind).  Perhaps you may not fully comprehend why, but our discussion(s) have come to an end.  I hope this is intelligible enough.

@ antibureaucratic

I am surprised that you would continue to trade insults with such a character as Al Shaheed-etc...   Please, take my advice, and show more self-respect.   

'I have nothing against the Religious Right, but there are many hypocrites who believe themselves to be pious Christians'

But you apparently do....as you equate hypocrites and the religious right/Christians as one and the same.

Seemingly to you, no hypocritism is to be found in other faiths?

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of...only stupidity.

I don't remember saying Muslims are animals, but they themselves certainly do like to equate infidels with animals as they do repeatedly calling Jews-apes and Christians-pigs.  All are filthy in their view.

And lastly...Muslims make jihadists...not people like me.  They are responsible for their actions...and only them.

antibureaucratic

Because of your ignorance with regard to the Islamic religion, you have pulled out what is rapidly becoming an old and tattered racism card.  Perhaps you do not like the way in which Al Shaheed Al Kuffar has presented her comments, she (?) has none the less presented the truth.

Truth may sometimes be ugly or not what you want to hear, but that does not make it racist.

She rightly called you a dhimmi, however, because you jumped to the defense of Muslims, without any real understanding and repeated politically correct diatribe that you have been fed for years by various institutions.  It is for that reason I do not blame you for your response.  Many of us have held those same beliefs at one time or another.

I do find it ironic, however, that you tried to insult her with the rhetorical question about being from the religious right.  One could consider that racist by using your own standards.

Do yourself a favor and read some books on Islam, such as The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer or While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer.

The Belgian state is there for politicians who promote irresponsibility. In Belgium responsibility is punished. Those who take up the responsibility to start a business or manage businesses are heavily taxed. Those who opt to do nothing are being paid to do so. The people who take up responsibility become irresponsible capitalists. Those who do not take up responsibility are victims of the irresponsible capitalists. Those who take up responsibility to write about the facts as they are, become outcasts.

The man who took up his responsibility in that bus paid with his life. ‘The youths’ know perfectly well that they are victims and therefore they more equal than others. Even the reddest socialist will know admit that these ‘youths’ have crossed the line of equality. However, many more ‘youths’ remain, harassing, raping, stealing and so one. As long as they don’t think they are too much more equal than others, they can remain victims in peace.

Taking up responsibility in Belgium is poor business. Being a victim pays. Any poor and sane person from the Third World who takes up initiative and his/her responsibility wants to become an irresponsible Belgian. As long as there are responsible people who pay for it.

It’s not that access to arms solves our problems in America, it is the worldview that mandates easy access to arms without that view and willingness to use force guns would not help. Indeed the younger and stronger or more numerous “youths” would simply take it away and use it on you so while allowing citizens to carry arms makes sense it is not a solution unless you also allow them to use force.

We have started a discussion thread on this story:

http://www.californiaccw.org/posts/list/333.page

Our forum is devoted to reforming gun laws in Europe (and California). If these youths knew that bus drivers might be armed none of these things would happen and bus drivers would feel safe. Concealed weapons are legal in 40 states in the US and it has helped reduce crime. The same could be done in Belgium and other parts of Europe that are facing increasing violence problems.

One thing that really bothers me - if 30 people got off the bus during the middle of this incident, did none of them think it would be a good idea to call the police?  If so, that is cowardice, and unjustified by their fear.  If not, if they did call the police, perhaps it was fear, and not apathy, that prevented them from doing anything while on the bus.

...to be clear in your statements.  In discussions one should not aim for 'agreement' but rather for clarity (i.e. 'understanding' the different opinions).

@ Al Shaheed Al Kufar

Your first paragraph is unintelligable.  "Facts" do not "do".  And my comments were not dealing with "details".  You claim that I missed "details", without being able to specify such "details". 

There is no doubt that many people have different perceptions of morality, certainly between muslims and nonmuslims, and also within these groups as well.   Your point that "muslim law legitimises indifference to the killing of unbelievers" does not mean that muslims lack "moral fibre".   

@ antibureaucratic

I introduced here the term "moral fibre", but your comments seem to be addressed to 'Al Shaheed Al Kufar'.  Who is meant by "you" in your text?  Please make clear who you are addressing?

Superficially "peace" and "freedom" are often conflicting values.   However, it should be clear that in the absence of freedom, there can be no genuine "peace" even if there is no conspicuous 'violence'.  The peace of the grave, or the death of the human spirit, cannot be equated with the moral value of "peace".   

When a bunch of Arabs kick a man to death, the Belgian press talks about "youths" . I had to listen to several news bulletins before it was actually spelled out that we were  talking about (surprise, surprise) Arabs (or better: new belgians as they prefer to call them). Of course the 'press' does this to prevent a certain part of our 'community' to be stigmatised... "Those poor Arab kids couldn't help it, they have to live in miserable conditions and don't get any opportunities in life...." This kind of crap we'll be able to read for the coming weeks in the 'quality press'.

The press only makes one exception, when something happens that is caused by somebody with right-wing sympathies, it only takes them 30minutes to print an extra edition with his home phone number, adress of his whole family.... 

I can't wait untill the next elections, I hope a lot of people will do the "right" thing!!

This is from Auden, written in 1948.  Remember there are two lies.

"The romantic lie in the brain

Of the sensual man-in-the-street

And the lie of Authority

Whose buildings grope the sky:

There is no such thing as the State

And no one exists alone;

Hunger allows no choice

To the citizen or the police;

We must love one another or die."

Whether it's indifference or fear/cowardice, is a moot point. People are naturally ashamed of standing by while others are attacked. (This is the demon still lurking at the door from the Holocaust.) They manage by turning off their human sensibilities like a light switch. That's indifference. So, where there's one, there's the other.

Do you ever lose indifference entirely once you choose it? If something like this happens again, is any fear necessary to call forth the indifference? Will courage be any easier to choose?

We have to judge the morality by figuring just how risky it would have been to help this brave man. I haven't enough information in this case to judge that.

But I do know that every time you look the other way, it gets easier and easier. Then to rationalize, you decide that you are doing the right thing, that you are just "peaceful" and "non-violent" -- not a Cain who asks "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Sort of the way Europe rationalizes never taking action to prevent genocide or deal with a threat and views America as "violent" for doing so.

The comment mentioning that this has happened in New York is significant. Yes, in NYC -- New England, that fragment of Europe in the New World. In densely populated areas, political correctness rules and erodes the backbone. People like this never do anything without looking first to see what others around them are doing. So, who's going to be the first to step forward and do something? No one!

Hicks from the sticks aren't plagued by such habits. If they see something that needs to be done, they do it. So, that indifference to the old lady would NEVER happen elsewhere in America. Indeed, look at the heroism of the commonfolk on 9/11 -- firefighters, iron workers, police = people who can't afford to live in NYC. No lack of courage among them.

So, while this incident says nothing about the individuals, if it is a trend, it says something alarming about the society.

To all,

Well, you have to take my word for it, but I took this bus for almost a year when my mother was in hospital. This piece of track (between Carnotstraat and Kerkstraat) is 100% populated by muslims. Each time, when I was going through that piece of track the bus was populated by +90% muslims. So it is almost certain that no more than something like 5 non muslim (and certainly unarmed) people were present at the time of the beating. It suffices to contact somebody living in Antwerp to confirm my statements. This should explain why "nobody" reacted, and why they were eager to get off the bus at the next stop, not wanting to be involved in the murder.
As a small reminder, this event happened +- 100m from where, a few years ago, an elderly non muslim man got harassed to the point he killed an imam at point blank. I remember this created days of rioting (instigated by the Arab European Union leader Abu Jaja). Do you think there is going to be rioting now? All what is going to happen is that, under a heavy police escort, some flowers will be deposited at the place the murder took place.

Some twenty years ago I got involved in a kind of a fight...

I was a third year medical student at that time, so it was 3 a.m. and I was still studiying microbiology for an exam the next day. Through the window I see some people throwing over my motorbike. Very naively I go outside to ask them (2 Belgians) what happens and five seconds later all their joined agression is turned towards me. They are apparently drunk. At a certain moment one of the guys tries to hit my head with a heavy stone, telling his friend he's going to kill me. In an effort I can escape the blow, free myself and flee into my house. To late to shut the frontdoor. They follow me into the house so I run to a room where I am so lucky to have a gun. My girlfriend wakes up in the room next to us... The guys are not to impressed by the gun (they see it is not my intention to shoot them) and one of them grabs the barrel and tries to pull it out of my hands while his compagnon tries to strangle me. They go on shouting they will kill everyone in the house, burn it down and so on. Their agressivity lets me fear the worst for my girlfriend and myself if I loose control of the gun. No choice...:One guy seriously wounded (God thanks he survives!) and the other one flees (to get reinforcement from other thugs!).

In court the prosecutor asks my aqcuital because of legal selfdefence. However the judge condemns me to three months suspended. Motivation?

I was the only one who was completely sober and I had the highest education, so I should have controlled the situation. 

Shame on all Belgians who continue to have indifference at the turmoil taking place in their country. Get angry, get pissed and get rid of those deadbeat elitists you have in power in Brussels. Go back in history 60 odd years and the same appeasement that exists today existed then and look how you stood by with the rest of Europe while millions of Jews were killed.

You only have yourselves to blame as the situation in Belgium is getting worse every day. Bury your heads in the sand, shrug your shoulders and keep saying 'there is nothing that I can do'. If you cannot do anything to change the apathy and the immigrant's violence, then BELGIUM IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.

How many potential rape victims could be saved if at the very least pepper spray were allowed. Good God, how pathetic is that!!! What a laughable country that now is Belgium. 

Maybe I'm somewhat spoiled since my government still recognized my God-given right to defend myself.  I don't carry a gun, most Americans don't, but I can assure you, a bus full of Americans would not stand by and let this happen.

There are enough places in the US where indifference rules, even when there is no direct violence involved. 

A person I know died in NY when she slipped in the snow.  An old woman, waiting for hours in the snow, on a busy road, with many, many people passing by.  NOBODY stopped to help.  And it wasn't because of the draconian gun laws, it was because of the fear that something bad would happen to them.

You can convince yourself that if a gang would be going crazy on a bus in the US, somebody would stand up, and maybe somebody would, but I think reality shows otherwise.

In this case - somebody did stand up, and he was killed for it.  You don't specifically need weapons to deal with six young men.  You need many more people who would have stood up and intervened.  And for that, you need to fight fear and indifference.

To read about this useless murder by godless youths seems so unbelievable. but still it happened. I am a American and I can begin to understand, "no" maybe comprehend what citizens of your country is up against. It is slowly happening in this county. We the citizens have over a period of time allowed this to become reality. We the citizens have always had the power to keep this kind of lawlessness and violence from roaming our streets, which has infested many EU countries, or should I say States. We over this period of change have not been involved in voting or better aware of what we are voting for. We seem to be giving up our nationalistic writes for our own personal concerns. The power to make change is in each of us, when united in a common cause. People put politicians in office. At least we still due in my country. Time is coming when this may or may not be. Some EU Countries are working very hard at not being involved. You, We, still have a choice and we still have free will, are giving it away. Freedom from ????????? comes with a price, when we no longer are willing to pay the price we lose our Freedom. Once gone or taken away, what then is the price to get them back?

I think the right word here is not cowardness but apathy. If a government is trying for so many years to take away any personal responsibility of its citizens, no wonder they will eventually feel cold and detached to other members of society. Cowardness would mean that citizens do not want to take up that individual responsibility again by political means. I do not see that yet happening overall in Belgium, but there is certainly a section of the population that is totally oblivious to current societal problems.

40 against 6 is not "unarmed" they had the numbers to have stompped these 6 pieces of Muslim garbage into 6 little wet spots on the pavement.

Europe deserves EXACTLY what it is going to get.

If you have the wit to be sickened by what has happened here then get out while you still can. 

When did so many Belgians became cowards?

When an anti-racism law was enforced.

Ever since the strict anti-racism laws are vigourously enforced in Belgium, no-one wants to act against these muslim youths. They fear being subpoenaed. I can tell from personal experience.

I absolutely cannot believe what I just read.

To the people on that bus who stood by and did nothing:  You sicken me!  How dare you stand by and watch an innocent man beaten to death for intervening on your own behalf.  You deserve to live in fear and terror for the rest of your miserable, cowardly lives!  

It was not "immigrant youths" that attacked Mr. Demoor, it was you Overlords!  They are your betters and you run away in fear of them.

When did so many Belgians become cowards?

Maybe I'm somewhat spoiled since my government still recognized my God-given right to defend myself.  I don't carry a gun, most Americans don't, but I can assure you, a bus full of Americans would not stand by and let this happen.

If Belgium still has a soul, now would be a good time to search it.